Sidework

[peter d]

There is no such thing as a contractors lic. in MA.
Journeyman can pull permits and have one apprentice, Masters can hire journeyman and one apprentice per journeyman.

MA is different than most states. Journeymen can do legal "sidework." And many MA journeymen have insurance and get permits. But the vast majority of the time sidework is done without the proper licenses and insurance.

Even though MA sanctions sidework with its liberal rules (if they can get money for it, they will!), it still causes market price depression because most j-men in MA can and do work much cheaper than contractors. At least it's legal though.

 

[stickboy1375]

I hear alot of guys doing side work ruining the pay scale for the rest of us, but I would really need some proof of this, look around, there is a home improvement store boom all around us, I think our brothers doing side work is the least of our worries.

Never forget these words... "You can do it, we can help"

 

[EBFD6]

Do you realize that you just condemned yourself with your own words? That's exactly the point - if sideworkers (as you've admitted that you are one yourself) didn't drive down the market value of electrical work, EC's could charge more and pay their employees more.

If you read my post you would see that is my point, It's a catch 22. There is no right answer!

I also am pretty sceptical, however, that contractors ability to charge more would have much impact on employees wages. I find it more likely that the contractors would charge more, therefore make more and that's about as far as it would go.

The last company I worked for, when I started he charged $35/hr and paid his top guys $29/hr. Eight years later when I left he charged $65/hr and paid his top guys $31/hr. Something doesn't sound right!

Oh well, I guess he had to pay for his Patriots luxury box season tickets, and his time share in Aruba somehow!

It's alright for the contractors to make more, but not the working man. That's my point. Like someone has already said, it's all a matter of perspective.

Employers think their employees are greedy and unappreciative of everything they do for them, and employees think their employer is greedy and unappreciative of what they do.There is no way to win!

 

[peter d]

I hear alot of guys doing side work ruining the pay scale for the rest of us, but I would really need some proof of this, look around, there is a home improvement store boom all around us, I think our brothers doing side work is the least of our worries.

Never forget these words... "You can do it, we can help"

No doubt about it, the home destruction stores do not help us at all in that sense. But I still like them, because I can buy all kinds of cool stuff there!

 

[peter d]

There is no way to win!

Yes there is - take the risk and become a contractor!!

 

[hardworkingstiff]

The last company I worked for, when I started he charged $35/hr and paid his top guys $29/hr. Eight years later when I left he charged $65/hr and paid his top guys $31/hr. Something doesn't sound right!

Yea, no way he paid $29/hr and collected $31/hr and stayed in business.

Employers think their employees are greedy and unappreciative of everything they do for them, and employees think their employer is greedy and unappreciative of what they do.There is no way to win!

Unfortunately, I believe there is a lot of truth to this statement.

 

[BryanMD]

EC's could charge more and pay their employees more.

well, lets be completely frank ok?

the EC *could* pay more but will he?
and I don't mean some elaborate bonus plan...I mean actual wages

My experience is that EC's will pay what they are forced to pay...
by market conditions/ availability of talent/ etc
and not a penny more

remember behind (almost) every small shop EC is an ex-employee who
thought the only way to do better was to go out on his own

for 1 in 10 this might actually work out
but for the rest... they mortgaged their house and bought a different job

 

[peter d]

My experience is that EC's will pay what they are forced to pay...
by market conditions/ availability of talent/ etc
and not a penny more

Yes, I don't disagree with that. That's market conditions at work. But the bottom line is that the contractors that pay well will attract good workers, and those that don't will not. It's really that simple. If they all pay the status quo and not a penny more, they will remain a status quo operation. All the "good" companies in my area are know for paying well, and that rate is above the "average" to "poor" companies (in terms of pay, benefits, working conditions, etc)

 

[EBFD6]

Yea, no way he paid $29/hr and collected $31/hr and stayed in business.

He was charging $35/hr, and the $29 was the top guys. There were alot of guys making much less and if you average the top guys with the first year helpers @ $9/hr how is that so hard to believe.


My point was in eight years he almost doubled his charge out rate, meanwhile his top guys saw a mere $2/hr raise. So the more he charges the more he makes, and his employees.......... not so much.

 

[mdshunk]

My point was in eight years he almost doubled his charge out rate, meanwhile his top guys saw a mere $2/hr raise. So the more he charges the more he makes, and his employees.......... not so much.

Did you consider the fact that his rates may have been way too low to survive before, and he got them more in line so those guys could remain employed and get a 2 dollar raise to boot?

 

[emahler]

He was charging $35/hr, and the $29 was the top guys. There were alot of guys making much less and if you average the top guys with the first year helpers @ $9/hr how is that so hard to believe.


My point was in eight years he almost doubled his charge out rate, meanwhile his top guys saw a mere $2/hr raise. So the more he charges the more he makes, and his employees.......... not so much.

any idea of what his increase for operating the business was in those 8 years? were there increases in advertising? insurance? etc?

or was he just a rich boss who was screwing all his employees?

 

[480sparky]

I'm with MD on this one... there's no way to stay in business charging $2/hour more than what you're paying in wages. In fact, that's the fastest way to go out of business I've ever seen.

If he has a crew of 4, working 40 hours a week, that means he makes a whopping $320 a week. THEN he still has to pay taxes, phone & utilities, accounting & advertising, vehicle expenses...... IF he has any money left over, that's HIS take-home.

 

[LarryFine]

My experience is that EC's will pay what they are forced to pay...
by market conditions/ availability of talent/ etc
and not a penny more

Sounds just like customers, doesn't it?

 

[emahler]

Sounds just like customers, doesn't it?

ah, who you kidding...you're customers give you blank checks...you just keep it all for your yachts and summer villas...all the while paying your help slave wages and making them live in tents and trailers...every boss cries poverty, but we know the truth

 

[wireman71]

I stand by my statement. Those doing sidework are doing the projects that are table scraps for real EC's. These people will NOT hire a real EC at what a EC charges. I even do explain to people when I theoreticaly do sidework that the EC's give them some value for thier dollar. IE: Van, usually a very skilled lead and accountability. But some people don't have money and will have there brother in law who roped one house do their work before hiring a real contractor.

 

[emahler]

I stand by my statement. Those doing sidework are doing the projects that are table scraps for real EC's. These people will NOT hire a real EC at what a EC charges. I even do explain to people when I theoreticaly do sidework that the EC's give them some value for thier dollar. IE: Van, usually a very skilled lead and accountability. But some people don't have money and will have there brother in law who roped one house do their work before hiring a real contractor.

so, it's ok to disregard laws because we want to?

amnesty to all illegal immigrants...

 

[wireman71]

Like our govt even obeys the laws. You ever go out and tie one on and drive home? Ever been to a company party that serves liquor? Ever seen a cop let his buddy off for speeding. I'll tell you whats fracking illegal, is our govt selling us out to China. Sending all our jobs to Mexico and China. Thats what is illegal and wrong. We are talking about a minor infraction. Do you speed? Law breaker...

 

[peter d]

Like our govt even obeys the laws. You ever go out and tie one on and drive home? Ever been to a company party that serves liquor? Ever seen a cop let his buddy off for speeding. I'll tell you whats fracking illegal, is our govt selling us out to China. Sending all our jobs to Mexico and China. Thats what is illegal and wrong. We are talking about a minor infraction. Do you speed? Law breaker...

We could go down that rabbit trail for days on end....but none of those issues have anything to do with the electrical trade so we don't discuss them here. Sidework, on the other hand, is a very real issue that affects some of us much more than others.

 

[satcom]

Yes there is - take the risk and become a contractor!!

It sounds like you are legal in Mass, and there is no reason you can't become a contractor, you have to take the risk, and make the investment.

Once you go in full time, you will see all the expenses of running a business, and may change your mind, and want nothing to to with it.

We have guys around here running around with new trucks and waring the bling, only troblem is their wife has a 6 figure income with benifits, and plenty help from family, the business id more show then go, they just like to make a flash. So the guys that work for them think they are making a fortune.

 

[stevenj76]

sidework and flat-rate

sidework and flat-rate

I suppose this is a bad time to bring up flat-rate again.

All this talk about flat-rate has me excited to find a good system for my side work.

Before I charged T&M for my side jobs. Now I want to get a bigger piece of the pie by going flat rate, busting my hump, and going home with an even bigger wad in my pocket.

After I've got this flat-rate thing nailed down to a science, maybe I'll go out on my own, legit and all.

Probably not, I get paid more than well enough in the large commercial end. There's lots of OT too, that puts a big damper on my side biz. But when the slow times come, I'm going to be equipped with my handy sidejob flat-rate book, that way I'm not just GIVING AWAY my work for cheap.