- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I would also bet if you wrote a proposal to clarify this it would be rejected on the basis that the code already states what you are trying to say. They may even laugh at it..
Small appliance branch circuits
- Thread starter ammklq143
- Start date
- Status
PetrosA
Senior Member
- Location
- Lancaster, Pennsylvania
I'm still not able to agree that the code forbids feeding an in-cabinet mounted outlet to a SABC. In other cases (built-in bookshelves for example), the code treats the wall space in the bookshelves as regular wall space for receptacle placement regardless of whether there's a back to the book shelf or not. It clearly states that all wall, floor and counter top receptacles in the kitchen shall be fed from the SABCs and makes no mention whatsoever of receptacles inside of cabinets.
The refrigerator outlet example was asking about where to draw the line. Appliance garages don't count as counter top for receptacle spacing, so do we not connect those receptacles to the SABCs either? In both cases, you could argue that they are cabinets and the receptacles inside of them are inside a cabinet.
The refrigerator outlet example was asking about where to draw the line. Appliance garages don't count as counter top for receptacle spacing, so do we not connect those receptacles to the SABCs either? In both cases, you could argue that they are cabinets and the receptacles inside of them are inside a cabinet.
That's half the problem with half the Code*.I would also bet if you wrote a proposal to clarify this it would be rejected on the basis that the code already states what you are trying to say. They may even laugh at it..
It is not clear and concise, while CMP members consistently claim otherwise when clear and concise proposals are made.
*For those technical gurus out there, yes, that is one-quarter of the Code not being clear and concise. So...
DISCLAIMER: Quantitative association is for effect only and not intended to be an accurate quantitative reconciliation.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
99.99999% of the problems with the code could be resolved if 90.1 was strictly followed.That's half the problem with half the Code*.
It is not clear and concise, while CMP members consistently claim otherwise when clear and concise proposals are made.
*For those technical gurus out there, yes, that is one-quarter of the Code not being clear and concise. So...
DISCLAIMER: Quantitative association is for effect only and not intended to be an accurate quantitative reconciliation.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
That's half the problem with half the Code*.
It is not clear and concise, while CMP members consistently claim otherwise when clear and concise proposals are made.
*For those technical gurus out there, yes, that is one-quarter of the Code not being clear and concise. So...
DISCLAIMER: Quantitative association is for effect only and not intended to be an accurate quantitative reconciliation.
I agree there are issues with the code however this issue is pretty clear to me. So a receptacle inside a cabinet is not compliant for the required outlet but one that is behind the same door with a bigger cutout in the back would be considered outside the cabinet and then satisfy the requirement. You would never get that by around here nor should it pass anywhere.
Just curious... aside from the apparent prohibition, what are your reasons why such a receptacle should not be allowed on an SABC?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I never said that they shouldn't be allowed. An appliance garage is a great example of why it should be allowed- at least in that situation. I know the NEC does not allow it and that is what I am addressing. That and the fact that the receptacle is within a cabinet if it behind doors regardless of how the back is cut out
I never said you did.
Your latter statements are very similar to CMP member positions on many proposals. They act like everybody can read their minds when a section is not clear and concise rather than simply making the section clear and concise.
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
That is he way I took it...:thumbsup:
You guys must be married... because you always interpret everything stated has some ulterior meaning.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
You guys must be married... because you always interpret everything stated has some ulterior meaning.
Yeah but this
seems to assume I have reasons why a receptacle should not be allowed...
No biggie.. all is good. I definitely do not see any difference between the described install and a standard install cut out for the box only-
- Location
- Massachusetts
You guys must be married... because you always interpret everything stated has some ulterior meaning.
Yeah, two peas in a pod ........ that is Dennis and I.
How about this? Since I already have the two SABC requirement met can I the additional circuit a microwave circuit and add a countertop receptacle on the circuit as long as I have another receptacle in the 24 inch counter area fed from one of the SABC's? It's pretty much the same thing except I have a receptacle on a microwave circuit instead of a "SABC".
I don't think so...
While that countertop receptacle wouldn't necessarily be one covered in 210.52(C), it would still be a wall receptacle as covered in 210.52(B)(1) "...the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), ..."
Leaving off part of a sentence can make a big difference. The gist of a sentence requires the entire sentence be considered. The part-left-off's intent was noting I understand your position is driven by your assumption of Code intent. The latter part then means, do you have any reasons other than that.seems to assume I have reasons why a receptacle should not be allowed...
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Yes but if you had said "Do you have any reasons other than that." it would have been clear-- It just was not clear to at least two of us- and no we are not married yet.. I am still courting...
And there you have a prime example of the difference between intent vs. clear and concise... on both accounts... :thumbsup:Yes but if you had said "Do you have any reasons other than that." it would have been clear-- It just was not clear to at least two of us- and no we are not married yet.. I am still courting...
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