SPD on Transformerless Inverters

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stumpyd123

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Texas
I’ll tell you, this whole system grounding thing has been poorly defined for PV arrays for over a decade and it has not got any better in 2017. Here’s a test that might keep people alive a little longer though. If you have an isolated inverter system on a nice sunny day turn off the inverter and measure the voltage between the two DC conductors and ground. Now turn on the inverter and make the measurements again. If one of those DC conductors is not zero volts to ground when the inverter is on and when it is off then no matter what anyone says that is an ungrounded PV array and should be treated like one if people do not want to get hurt or killed. That’s the bottom line to me.

The same thing applies to an isolated inverter system with GFDI, what we have been treating as solidly grounded for years. If you turn off the inverter, pull the GFDI fuse, and don’t have a measurement of zero volts to ground on one of those DC conductors then that array is ungrounded at that time. I’m not going to trust that GFDI fuse being in the circuit to protect me, I’m going to treat it like an ungrounded array all the time. Then I can live to talk about it.

Thanks for the good advice on how to check just how "functional" the ground is. I think my take away after all this is to just leave the aftermarket SPD off the DC side of the system, and just install one on the AC side at the service connection.

I was also a bit surprised by Midnite's response, especially since their customer facing contact said he discussed it with their applications engineer.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
I’ll tell you, this whole system grounding thing has been poorly defined for PV arrays for over a decade and it has not got any better in 2017. Here’s a test that might keep people alive a little longer though. If you have an isolated inverter system on a nice sunny day turn off the inverter and measure the voltage between the two DC conductors and ground. Now turn on the inverter and make the measurements again. If one of those DC conductors is not zero volts to ground when the inverter is on and when it is off then no matter what anyone says that is an ungrounded PV array and should be treated like one if people do not want to get hurt or killed. That’s the bottom line to me.

The same thing applies to an isolated inverter system with GFDI, what we have been treating as solidly grounded for years. If you turn off the inverter, pull the GFDI fuse, and don’t have a measurement of zero volts to ground on one of those DC conductors then that array is ungrounded at that time. I’m not going to trust that GFDI fuse being in the circuit to protect me, I’m going to treat it like an ungrounded array all the time. Then I can live to talk about it.

...

You really don't think 2017 is any better? You'll get no argument from me on the fundamentals you've described. I'm just curious how you would have the code improved. Personally I think it is a lot closer to reflecting the reality that you've described above. Is it the term 'functional grounded' that bothers you? I'm curious what you'd propose to replace it. 'Ground referenced'? For what it's worth I'm pretty sure the First Draft said 'Reference grounded' and for some reason they decided that was unclear.
 

GoldDigger

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Retired PV System Designer
You really don't think 2017 is any better? You'll get no argument from me on the fundamentals you've described. I'm just curious how you would have the code improved. Personally I think it is a lot closer to reflecting the reality that you've described above. Is it the term 'functional grounded' that bothers you? I'm curious what you'd propose to replace it. 'Ground referenced'? For what it's worth I'm pretty sure the First Draft said 'Reference grounded' and for some reason they decided that was unclear.

A key operational characteristic of an ungrounded source (whether DC or AC) is that a single fault to ground will not cause current to flow. To a large extent this increases rather than decreasing safety.
A second operational characteristic is that for the purposes of insulation breakdown the voltage of any point within the source is not necessarily limited to the peak value of the line to line voltage. This makes it possible to read higher than expected voltages when using a high impedance meter, but is not likely to have safety consequences.
A third characteristic is that a single OCPD on one leg of the source cannot interrupt fault current if there are two ground faults both within and outside the source.

The "functionally grounded" array associated with a non-isolating inverter can produce fault current in the event of a single ground fault within the array.
So on point 1 it behaves like grounded rather than ungrounded.
The voltages at any point within the fg array (while the inverter is operating) can never exceed the peak AC line voltage plus the line to line DC array voltage. In fact it will always be equal to or lower than the peak AC line voltage or the DC line to line voltage, whichever is larger.
So on point 2 it is closer to grounded than to to ungrounded.
If there is a ground fault within the array, and the GF detector in the inverter does now work or the array is disconnected from the inverter input, a single OCPD on one leg of the array output will still be able to prevent fault current in the array unless there is a second GF at the same time.
Again, more similar on point 3 to a grounded array than to an ungrounded array.
IMO the biggest difference between fg and solidly grounded is in the details of point 3.

When it comes to the design and installation of SPDs, the details of point 2 are the most important. It affects the practical voltage thresholds of the SPD components.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
You really don't think 2017 is any better? You'll get no argument from me on the fundamentals you've described. I'm just curious how you would have the code improved. Personally I think it is a lot closer to reflecting the reality that you've described above. Is it the term 'functional grounded' that bothers you? I'm curious what you'd propose to replace it. 'Ground referenced'? For what it's worth I'm pretty sure the First Draft said 'Reference grounded' and for some reason they decided that was unclear.

Since you asked, :D. I would limit it to just two options, solidly grounded and ungrounded. All the requirements for the testing for insulation failure or ground fault by the PV system are, to me, completely separate functionality to the system grounding itself. But with the addition of the term "functional grounded” an attempt has been made to combine the ungrounded array with ground fault and insulation failure testing and create a new kind of system ground. I don’t think we were doing it right before when treating GFDI equipped arrays as solidly grounded and I still don’t think we are doing it right in treating “functional grounded” as anything other than ungrounded. The PV industry is just scared silly of calling anything ungrounded because of possible AHJ pushback.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Thanks for the good advice on how to check just how "functional" the ground is. I think my take away after all this is to just leave the aftermarket SPD off the DC side of the system, and just install one on the AC side at the service connection.

I was also a bit surprised by Midnite's response, especially since their customer facing contact said he discussed it with their applications engineer.

You really never said why you wanted to add additional SPD. I don’t work in high lightening zones so it’s not something I have put a lot of thought into. Personally I do not know what issues come up with putting SPDs on ungrounded systems and why they would need to be specifically listed. But 285.3(2) applies to PV since nothing in 690 overrides it. And keep in mind that the rest of the NEC does not know anything about system grounding other than ungrounded, solidly grounded, and impedance grounded. So when you go to apply something like 285.3 you have to translate all the different PV system grounding that is being used in 690 into one of those three types.
 
Since you asked, :D. I would limit it to just two options, solidly grounded and ungrounded. All the requirements for the testing for insulation failure or ground fault by the PV system are, to me, completely separate functionality to the system grounding itself. But with the addition of the term "functional grounded” an attempt has been made to combine the ungrounded array with ground fault and insulation failure testing and create a new kind of system ground. I don’t think we were doing it right before when treating GFDI equipped arrays as solidly grounded and I still don’t think we are doing it right in treating “functional grounded” as anything other than ungrounded. The PV industry is just scared silly of calling anything ungrounded because of possible AHJ pushback.

I certainly agree that here in the states we have an irrational fear of ungrounded systems. I suspect this is partly simply because many do not even understand system grounding vs equipment grounding/bonding and what each does and doesnt do. I hereby blame the NEC for much of the confusion however. First, they kinda have an irrational "grounding is better" philosophy when it comes to PV. Secondly, I feel that they should have, from the beginning, kept this issue and its terms aligned with the concept and term "separately derived systems".
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Since you asked, :D. I would limit it to just two options, solidly grounded and ungrounded. All the requirements for the testing for insulation failure or ground fault by the PV system are, to me, completely separate functionality to the system grounding itself. But with the addition of the term "functional grounded” an attempt has been made to combine the ungrounded array with ground fault and insulation failure testing and create a new kind of system ground. I don’t think we were doing it right before when treating GFDI equipped arrays as solidly grounded and I still don’t think we are doing it right in treating “functional grounded” as anything other than ungrounded. The PV industry is just scared silly of calling anything ungrounded because of possible AHJ pushback.

Thanks for the response. I suppose my counterpoint would be that the NEC is not intended to be a safety instruction manual. It's supposed to tell us what we are allowed to install. And I appreciate that the current list in 690.41(A) states that all those things are permitted. Which, by the way, includes ungrounded arrays.

I agree that it's unfortunate if potential AHJ pushback on ungrounded arrays is muddying the code.
 

stumpyd123

Member
Location
Texas
A second operational characteristic is that for the purposes of insulation breakdown the voltage of any point within the source is not necessarily limited to the peak value of the line to line voltage. This makes it possible to read higher than expected voltages when using a high impedance meter, but is not likely to have safety consequences.

Thanks for the clarification GoldDigger. Can you suggest a place to read more about the voltages in ungrounded systems? I don't understand how an ungrounded system could affect the allowable voltage levels when it comes to insulation breakdown.
 

stumpyd123

Member
Location
Texas
You really never said why you wanted to add additional SPD. I don’t work in high lightening zones so it’s not something I have put a lot of thought into. Personally I do not know what issues come up with putting SPDs on ungrounded systems and why they would need to be specifically listed. But 285.3(2) applies to PV since nothing in 690 overrides it. And keep in mind that the rest of the NEC does not know anything about system grounding other than ungrounded, solidly grounded, and impedance grounded. So when you go to apply something like 285.3 you have to translate all the different PV system grounding that is being used in 690 into one of those three types.

pv_N00b - I was planning on adding another SPD because the home owner would like as much protection as possible, and my understanding is that it wouldn't add much cost. This has sort of arisen from the fact that he has generally only installed micro-inverter systems, so the AC SPD was all he needed.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
pv_N00b - I was planning on adding another SPD because the home owner would like as much protection as possible, and my understanding is that it wouldn't add much cost. This has sort of arisen from the fact that he has generally only installed micro-inverter systems, so the AC SPD was all he needed.

I went to the Midnight Solar website and looked at the SPDs. They are listed to UL 1449 which I was not familiar with. I looked that up and it is the SPD listing for SPDs in AC power circuits up to 1000V and PV systems up to 1,500V. Specifically Type 1 SPDs for PV arrays:

Type 1 – Permanently connected SPDs intended for installation between the secondary of the service transformer and the line side of the service equipment overcurrent device, as well as the load side, including watt-hour meter socket enclosures and Molded Case SPDs intended to be installed without an external overcurrent protective device. Type 1 SPDs for use in PV systems can be connected between the PV array and the main service disconnect.


But the data sheet for the Midnight Solar SPDs says they are Type 2 which are not for use in PV systems. If you find a Type 1 SPD of the correct voltage rating listed to UL 1449 then you are good to go.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
pv_N00b - I was planning on adding another SPD because the home owner would like as much protection as possible, and my understanding is that it wouldn't add much cost. This has sort of arisen from the fact that he has generally only installed micro-inverter systems, so the AC SPD was all he needed.

I’ve decided that if the SPD manufacture says they are listed and that we can use their product in the array then use it. If it doesn’t work then it’s the manufacturers problem and a failure of the UL listing system. So go install that Midnight SPD.
 

stumpyd123

Member
Location
Texas
UL 1499 Confusion

UL 1499 Confusion

The UL Standard for SPDs is here: https://standardscatalog.ul.com/standards/en/standard_1449

My reading of it is that only Type 1 SPDs can be used in PV arrays. Anyone else agree/disagree? I’m curious if I am reading this wrong.

Hello PV_n00b. I do read it slightly differently. This UL standard states that all of the types listed below can be used on PV arrays of less than 1500 V dc, but then the type goes on to specify specifics. Type 1 is the only one specifically listed to be used on the dc side of a PV array. A type 2 can be used on a "PV array", but only on the load side of the service equipment overcurrent device. So, the way I read it, Midnite Solar's dc SPD's have the wrong listing (type 2 instead of type 1), but you would think that Midnite solar and the UL would know that standard better than ourselves.

In the end, I think your assessment is very reasonable. We need to count on manufacturers and the UL to apply the correct UL listing to the right device.

"
Scope
1.1 These requirements cover enclosed and open-type Surge Protective Devices (SPDs) designed for repeated limiting of transient voltage surges as specified in the standard on 50 or 60 Hz power circuits not exceeding 1000 V and for PV applications up to 1500 V dc and designated as follows:

Type 1 – Permanently connected SPDs intended for installation between the secondary of the service transformer and the line side of the service equipment overcurrent device, as well as the load side, including watt-hour meter socket enclosures and Molded Case SPDs intended to be installed without an external overcurrent protective device. Type 1 SPDs for use in PV systems can be connected between the PV array and the main service disconnect.

Type 2 – Permanently connected SPDs intended for installation on the load side of the service equipment overcurrent device; including SPDs located at the branch panel and Molded Case SPDs.

Type 3 – Point of utilization SPDs, installed at a minimum conductor length of 10 meters (30 feet) from the electrical service panel to the point of utilization, for example cord connected, direct plug-in, receptacle type and SPDs installed at the utilization equipment being protected. See marking in 80.3. The distance (10 meters) is exclusive of conductors provided with or used to attach SPDs.
"
 

GoldDigger

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Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Thanks for the clarification GoldDigger. Can you suggest a place to read more about the voltages in ungrounded systems? I don't understand how an ungrounded system could affect the allowable voltage levels when it comes to insulation breakdown.

From http://www.powerlogic.com/literature/LineToGroundVoltageMonitoring_08262005.pdf (section V, A). It is a fairly nice reference on ungrounded systems in general.

A major limitation to the ungrounded system has been the arcing ground fault. By arcing ground is meant
a process by which alternate clearing and re-striking of the arc causes recurring high surge voltages.
These surge voltages stress the insulation on other parts of the system causing premature equipment failure.

Not an explanation, but a reference which you might be able to follow up on with a search. A restriking arc fault can end up looking a lot like a diode and switch and the stray capacitances in the system give you a circuit that looks a lot like a voltage doubler. Except you end up with transient voltages rather than a DC offset.
 
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