Splice kit approved for behind walls?

[K8MHZ]

Beside the legality, I also think the splice is a potential fire hazard. I am pretty sure the connector was designed to be used with solid wire and eventually the fine stranded wire will cause a bad connection and possible lots of heat.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Beside the legality, I also think the splice is a potential fire hazard. I am pretty sure the connector was designed to be used with solid wire and eventually the fine stranded wire will cause a bad connection and possible lots of heat.

are any of these in-wall UL listed splices rated for solid and stranded wire?

 

[K8MHZ]

are any of these in-wall UL listed splices rated for solid and stranded wire?

I kind of have my doubts.

 

[user 100]

are any of these in-wall UL listed splices rated for solid and stranded wire?

I kind of have my doubts.

Can't find anything on the kit from the pic that says they are listed for stranded/ are for solid only.

It wouldn't seem that they are listed for stranded because they are nm splice kits, we don't see stranded nm or see them used on anyhing except solid-

I know deep down that's crappy, lousy reasoning (we know it's bad to assume about listing) but just pointing out an observation.

 

[JFletcher]

Those in wall splices are rated with NM only, solid conductors only, They can be buried behind anything and dont have to have a jbox. The connectors, once snapped together, are reportedly almost impossible to take apart again, and all the directions Ive seen for them are 'single use only - do not reterminate'. Kinda like a prevailing torque headbolt. I do not consider them a fire hazard (when installed properly with NM), any more than I consider an overdriven staple a fire hazard.

and despite feelings about them, they are perfectly compliant with the 2014 NEC, section cited above. The pic isnt compliant as it's not NM.

 

[iwire]

They can be buried behind anything and dont have to have a jbox.

I will point out that NEC wise they can only be buried for repairs as in the picture.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Those in wall splices are rated with NM only, solid conductors only, They can be buried behind anything and dont have to have a jbox. The connectors, once snapped together, are reportedly almost impossible to take apart again, and all the directions Ive seen for them are 'single use only - do not reterminate'. Kinda like a prevailing torque headbolt. I do not consider them a fire hazard (when installed properly with NM), any more than I consider an overdriven staple a fire hazard.

and despite feelings about them, they are perfectly compliant with the 2014 NEC, section cited above. The pic isnt compliant as it's not NM.

one of the questions around "bury" is that splices typically require to be accessible. so why do these in-wall NM splice devices allowed to be buried, but a metal 21 covered box cannot?

 

[iwire]

one of the questions around "bury" is that splices typically require to be accessible. so why do these in-wall NM splice devices allowed to be buried, but a metal 21 covered box cannot?

I don't know, better lobbying by Tyco then Raco?

Here is the 2014 code section that applies.

334.40 Boxes and fittings.

(B) Devices of'Insulating Material. Self-contained switches,
self-contained receptacles, and nonmetallic sheathed cable interconnector
devices of insulating material that are listed shall
be permitted to be used without boxes in exposed cable wiring
and for repair wiring in existing buildings where the cable is
concealed. Openings in such devices shall 1'01111 a close fit
around the outer covering of the cable, and the device shall
fully enclose the part of the cable from which any part of the
covering has been removed. Where connections to conductors
are by binding-screw terminals, therc shall be available as
many terminals as conductors.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Can't find anything on the kit from the pic that says they are listed for stranded/ are for solid only.

I just spent some time looking for Tyco documentation on the product, and have been astonished to find "No documentation available." posted for the product (that is very hard to find the exact pages for) in multiple product number pages.

This PDF catalog page shows several Tyco product catalog numbers.

This Tyco web site product page shows the extreme lack of content and documentation the manufacturer offers about the product.

 

[FionaZuppa]

so, UL QAAV is the spec, only says "for copper conductors only", does not say solid or stranded, but, the spec does call out some related code and wire specs
see http://ulstandards.ul.com/standard/?id=2256

QAAV calls out NEC art 336 (1959 nec??), not 334 of 2014 nec, so perhaps UL needs to update the QAAV to include nec art 334 ??

from the nec code and other documentation, the electrician has duty to determine if a new wire pull is doable w/o extravagent cost or damage/repairs to the owner. if the owner will incur big costs and lots of repairs then this splice is acceptable. imho, this leads to wild interpretation and excessive use of the device. only proliferation of use and time will tell.

nec 240.2 ?? QAAV says "tap", not "splice", make a diff ??

and last Q, is OP in AHJ using 2014 nec ?

 

[iwire]

from the nec code and other documentation, the electrician has duty to determine if a new wire pull is doable w/o extravagent cost or damage/repairs to the owner. if the owner will incur big costs and lots of repairs then this splice is acceptable.

I posted the code section and I see nothing like that at all.

It simply says for repair.

 

[FionaZuppa]

I posted the code section and I see nothing like that at all.

It simply says for repair.

One of the major things to remember about this product is that the device is for “repair” purposes only. If an electrician has the accessibility and availability to replace existing wiring with new wiring, there would be no need for a device such as a nonmetallic-sheathed cable interconnector.

this implies determining if new wire can be done.

have a read
http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2014/07/10/enter-the-nonmetallic-sheathed-cable-interconnector/

 

[iwire]

One of the major things to remember about this product is that the device is for “repair” purposes only. If an electrician has the accessibility and availability to replace existing wiring with new wiring, there would be no need for a device such as a nonmetallic-sheathed cable interconnector.

this implies determining if new wire can be done.

have a read
http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2014/07/10/enter-the-nonmetallic-sheathed-cable-interconnector/

None of that is code it is just opinion.

The code simply says for repair, each area that adopts the NEC will get to determine what a repair is. But let's be realistic, no one is pulling a permit or greeting these types of repairs inspected.

 

[FionaZuppa]

None of that is code it is just opinion.

The code simply says for repair, each area that adopts the NEC will get to determine what a repair is. But let's be realistic, no one is pulling a permit or greeting these types of repairs inspected.

right, its not written in the code. thats how it was presented in order to get the changes they were asking for. sadly, what is written into the nec code does not carry clear words of its intended interpretation (or reasoning behind it). obviously nec code wants to leave out any verbiage that opens things up for interpretation, in this case it seems the intention in use of these specific "repair" devices has not been fully conveyed in the nec verbiage.

 

[JFletcher]

sorry, poor choice of words with "buried"; they can be hidden by permanent structure.

 

[FionaZuppa]

sorry, poor choice of words with "buried"; they can be hidden by permanent structure.

QAAV verbiage (under ul2256) is "...in exposed or concealed locations..."

and for clarity UL 2256 does not ref nec 334, but the pdf for QAAV does, see http://ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/ul_NMCableInterconnectors.pdf

 

[JFletcher]

one of the questions around "bury" is that splices typically require to be accessible. so why do these in-wall NM splice devices allowed to be buried, but a metal 21 covered box cannot?

the 2014 defines what these are with "nonmetallic sheathed cable interconnector devices of insulating material that are listed". That specific language is not in previous editions of the NEC. It is a splice but it's designed and listed to be inacessible after install and not need a j-box.

Also, you can only do a 1 to 1 connection with these. Jboxes might have 2 cables, or 5, but either way they arent listed to be concealed.

If I did have to install another one of these, I would include a note attached to the panel exactly where it is, so if it were to fail, the next electrician would have a clue. I'd also (and have) messed around with these in the shop before installing in the field to know if it is going to be the time saver it appears to be.

As for the solid/stranded question, 12/14ga NM isnt available in stranded, and since that's all it works with/is listed to be used with, it's a moot point.

Also see 300.15(H).

Here's a whole article detailing these in-wall splices.

http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2014/07/10/enter-the-nonmetallic-sheathed-cable-interconnector/

There are also similar devices for in-wall receptacles for hiding wiring for wall mount TVs. I used one last week. The factory simplex receptacles, pre-terminated on NM cable, actually make the backside of the half-round j-box. The bottom receptacle uses a reverse pinout (it's a male plug, not a female receptacle). A piece of Wiremold or a recessed receptacle tapped off an existing one would have been faster to install, looked as good or better, and much cheaper than the kit that HO bought.

 

[JFletcher]

I missed the edit time. From your link FionaZuppa:

ETA: "The interconnects are intended for use at
600 volts ac or less on 15 and 20 ampere
branch circuits wired with Nos. 14 and 12
AWG solid or stranded copper conductors. "

Still dont know of any stranded NM of those gauges.

 

[FionaZuppa]

I missed the edit time. From your link FionaZuppa:

ETA: "The interconnects are intended for use at
600 volts ac or less on 15 and 20 ampere
branch circuits wired with Nos. 14 and 12
AWG solid or stranded copper conductors. "

Still dont know of any stranded NM of those gauges.

i think QAAV devices can support both, but ul2256 calls out nm nms nmc wire types, so i guess its restricted. but do the other articles mentioned in ul2256 allow wire types that may be stranded ?? its all nm types i believe.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Also, you can only do a 1 to 1 connection with these. Jboxes might have 2 cables, or 5, but either way they arent listed to be concealed.


Here's a whole article detailing these in-wall splices.

http://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2014/07/10/enter-the-nonmetallic-sheathed-cable-interconnector/

if i used a metal or plastic box to make a 1:1 splice in a single NM repair, and put that behind a wall, whats the diff from the splice device? and yes, that is the link i posted earlier.