Splice kit approved for behind walls?

[K8MHZ]

if i used a metal or plastic box to make a 1:1 splice in a single NM repair, and put that behind a wall, whats the diff from the splice device? and yes, that is the link i posted earlier.

Huge difference.

First, part of the device is missing in the picture. Take a look at the sites that sell them and you will notice a strain relief apparatus. That is very important. Second, the connections are solid and by instruction, irreversible. Third, the design has been tested and shown to approximate the integrity of an unspliced connection.

I agree that it's not as good as an unspliced cable, but I can see where it's a far cry better than burying a box in the wall.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Huge difference.

First, part of the device is missing in the picture. Take a look at the sites that sell them and you will notice a strain relief apparatus. That is very important. Second, the connections are solid and by instruction, irreversible. Third, the design has been tested and shown to approximate the integrity of an unspliced connection.

I agree that it's not as good as an unspliced cable, but I can see where it's a far cry better than burying a box in the wall.

where's the strain relied in OP pic?? looks like a std clamshell to me.
cable relief? i mount box to concrete wall or stud, and, the box has built-in NM clamps, or i use 1/2" NM clamps.

integrity of a splice? wire nuts have integrity and have been used for an eternity, they are proven. about 1,000 more yrs than these QAAV devices.

i not buying your argument.

 

[JFletcher]

where's the strain relied in OP pic?? looks like a std clamshell to me.
cable relief? i mount box to concrete wall or stud, and, the box has built-in NM clamps, or i use 1/2" NM clamps.

integrity of a splice? wire nuts have integrity and have been used for an eternity, they are proven. about 1,000 more yrs than these QAAV devices.

i not buying your argument.

wire nuts can corrode, loosen, burn up. They are made to be taken apart. These splice kits are basically permanent and irreversible, like those Ideal UF direct bury splices.

A metal box weighs substantially more than a plastic interconnect device, weight that, unless the box was mounted to a stud, would probably pull on the wiring.

I would rather mount a metal box recessed enough so that with a metal cover, one could put a bit of drywall mud and paint over it so that it's hidden but still accessible, than completely conceal a jbox. Or use one of those 8x8 Oatey access covers to be able to access it.

A metal box with metal clamps with a metal cover housing the 1 to 1 connection and being buried isnt the end of the world, but its an NEC violation and not a listed method. These, for better or worse, are listed and NEC compliant. and, afaik, they are only made for NM, so you wont see buried splices for MC or AC, not anymore than running into concealed jboxes for the same.

I wish the CMP would consider making it a violation to conceal or not use a jbox with v/d/v splices. When one of those fail, it's often easier to run new wire than track down where the failure occurred. They do make cat6 splice blocks that look much like these Tyco/TE Connectivity NM splices.

 

[K8MHZ]

where's the strain relied in OP pic?? looks like a std clamshell to me.

My guess is that whoever installed the splice left that part off.

 

[K8MHZ]

wire nuts have integrity and have been used for an eternity, they are proven

And I have seen dozens burnt to a crisp. I have seen just as many come loose and fall right off the connection.

One day years ago, I was called to see why some receptacles in a brand new house weren't working. I found a splice buried in the wall, it was NM splice with wirenuts, no box, and one had come loose. That required busting out a good portion of brand new wall to locate precisely.

 

[FionaZuppa]

And I have seen dozens burnt to a crisp. I have seen just as many come loose and fall right off the connection.

One day years ago, I was called to see why some receptacles in a brand new house weren't working. I found a splice buried in the wall, it was NM splice with wirenuts, no box, and one had come loose. That required busting out a good portion of brand new wall to locate precisely.

ok, then require wago 221's or 222's in a concealed splice box. how many 222's have you seen fall off or burn to a crisp?

QAAV's are plastic btw, they can crisp too

 

[iwire]

ok, then require wago 221's or 222's in a concealed splice box. how many 222's have you seen fall off or burn to a crisp?

QAAV's are plastic btw, they can crisp too

You are in search of a logical answer, I do not think you will find one.

I really think this is the deal

I don't know, better lobbying by Tyco then Raco?

 

[Mark47n]

i think QAAV devices can support both, but ul2256 calls out nm nms nmc wire types, so i guess its restricted. but do the other articles mentioned in ul2256 allow wire types that may be stranded ?? its all nm types i believe.

You seem a bit hung up on the whole UL thing. At the end of the day it's the manufacturers responsibility to have a given device approved by the UL (or other ETL accepted by the AHJ) and then to supply the instructions for use to the end user. The end user is compelled by code to follow manufacturer instructions.

To compare these in any way to a box in the wall is impossible as they aren't similar methods for making splices in any way.

 

[FionaZuppa]

You seem a bit hung up on the whole UL thing. At the end of the day it's the manufacturers responsibility to have a given device approved by the UL (or other ETL accepted by the AHJ) and then to supply the instructions for use to the end user. The end user is compelled by code to follow manufacturer instructions.

To compare these in any way to a box in the wall is impossible as they aren't similar methods for making splices in any way.

using wago in a plastic/metal box achieves the same outcome. why is it they cannot be compared if the outcome is identical?

 

[K8MHZ]

using wago in a plastic/metal box achieves the same outcome. why is it they cannot be compared if the outcome is identical?

How do you know the outcome will be identical? Have you done tensile strength tests on both?

Solid wire can be removed from Wagos by pulling them out. For solid wire, they can be re-used. The splice kit is a one time use only device.

There is no strain relief when using a box. The clamp is NOT strain relief.

Standard NM connectors are not designed to support weight, even the weight of the box and cable below. The splice kits are designed to do just that.

So how can you say the results are identical?

 

[FionaZuppa]

How do you know the outcome will be identical? Have you done tensile strength tests on both?

Solid wire can be removed from Wagos by pulling them out. For solid wire, they can be re-used. The splice kit is a one time use only device.

There is no strain relief when using a box. The clamp is NOT strain relief.

Standard NM connectors are not designed to support weight, even the weight of the box and cable below. The splice kits are designed to do just that.

So how can you say the results are identical?

a box would be mounted, there is no strain on the NM, just as it is for any other mounted box used for NM.
i suspect if you subject wago/box method to QAAV tests you'll get same results of PASS.

 

[user 100]

There is no strain relief when using a box. The clamp is NOT strain relief.

Standard NM connectors are not designed to support weight, even the weight of the box and cable below. The splice kits are designed to do just that.

Right- those clamps are mainly for attachment of, and sealing up the penetration of, nm entering a box/ enclosure.

a box would be mounted, there is no strain on the NM, just as it is for any other mounted box used for NM.
i suspect if you subject wago/box method to QAAV tests you'll get same results of PASS.

But if the box was left floating, what kind of box do you think would be best to attach nm to, make up joints in, and leave loose in the wall? I don't care for these kits either but opinion doesn't change the fact that they have been proven safe by testing and are an approved alternative.

 

[FionaZuppa]

But if the box was left floating, what kind of box do you think would be best to attach nm to, make up joints in, and leave loose in the wall? I don't care for these kits either but opinion doesn't change the fact that they have been proven safe by testing and are an approved alternative.

not allowed to be left floating, just as they are not allowed to float today. mount a box, use a NM clamp, splice with a wago. nec is nec, i get it. do you really think mounted box using wago is not as safe as a floating QAAV device?

 

[user 100]

not allowed to be left floating, just as they are not allowed to float today. mount a box, use a NM clamp, splice with a wago. nec is nec, i get it. do you really think mounted box using wago is not as safe as a floating QAAV device?

No-that is not what I meant. There is a misunderstanding here- I thought that you were saying that a floating box w/ wagos would meet parity w/ the splice kits. Do you mean that or are you saying that the mounted box/ wago, wirenut whatever is on parity with the kits????

 

[FionaZuppa]

No-that is not what I meant. There is a misunderstanding here- I thought that you were saying that a floating box w/ wagos would meet parity w/ the splice kits. Do you mean that or are you saying that the mounted box/ wago, wirenut whatever is on parity with the kits????

mounted box w/ NM clamps, not wire nut because the folks here say they burn off or fall off.

 

[user 100]

mounted box w/ NM clamps, not wire nut because the folks here say they burn off or fall off.

I'm assuming you mean these 2 guys......

And I have seen dozens burnt to a crisp. I have seen just as many come loose and fall right off the connection.

One day years ago, I was called to see why some receptacles in a brand new house weren't working. I found a splice buried in the wall, it was NM splice with wirenuts, no box, and one had come loose. That required busting out a good portion of brand new wall to locate precisely.

wire nuts can corrode, loosen, burn up. They are made to be taken apart. These splice kits are basically permanent and irreversible, like those Ideal UF direct bury splices.

.....I believe they actually meant that they have seen failures of wire nuts and its a bad idea to use them in a floating splice b/c they can come loose/joint can fail catastrophically if applied incorrectly, whereas these kits are a much tighter/fail proof connection. I don't believe that they meant wire nuts as a whole are defective/problematic.

And as for the hidden mounted box w/ wagos, the bottom line is that that method has not been approved. Whether it meet would parity using certain test perimeters, IDK. All these kits are is a tested, approved option if someone for this or that reason doesn't want to or can't use a box.

 

[JFletcher]

I'm assuming you mean these 2 guys......





.....I believe they actually meant that they have seen failures of wire nuts and its a bad idea to use them in a floating splice b/c they can come loose/joint can fail catastrophically if applied incorrectly, whereas these kits are a much tighter/fail proof connection. I don't believe that they meant wire nuts as a whole are defective/problematic.

And as for the hidden mounted box w/ wagos, the bottom line is that that method has not been approved. Whether it meet would parity using certain test perimeters, IDK. All these kits are is a tested, approved option if someone for this or that reason doesn't want to or can't use a box.

Exactly.


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Hidden jboxes are anywhere from 'never an issue' to 'major pita/fire hazard'. As for the integrity of the connection, the listed interconnect devices hands down beat a wire nut or wago. As for fire rating, Im sure a metal box and cover beat that splice device, but as it is, that splice is probably as good as an unbroken length of cable; if a circuit were overloaded to the point of ignition, I doubt that joint would be the failure point.

That splice isnt the same as a hidden jbox with two cables. And if jboxes were ever allowed to be concealed with just two cables in them, then you'd see people doing 3, 4, 5 cables in one, figuring if a splice can be hidden, then what's the difference between two cables and six?

 

[mjf]

wow, you all complicate the hell outta this.

the difference is that the in-wall splice kit (if used properly) is code compliant and burying a JB is not code compliant.

Keep it simple.

 

[Mark47n]

wow, you all complicate the hell outta this.

the difference is that the in-wall splice kit (if used properly) is code compliant and burying a JB is not code compliant.

Keep it simple.

What he said.

Additionally, if you read the article referenced in this thread you'll notice the the chief objection that the inspector had was that it wasn't how he was taught to do it. The article also goes on to note that similar buried splicing language was in the NEC back to the 1940's so it's hardly new.

This interconnect is NOT a box and shouldn't be compared to such. I can bury spliced repairs in med voltage cables, UF, triplex, etc, depending on the method of splicing and the application. This isn't new and repairing a damaged cable is not the same as tapping, which is one of the reasons that the language in the code section was changed.

 

[iwire]

wow, you all complicate the hell outta this.

What he said.

No not all, just one.