Splitting packaged spa wiring components

[brantmacga]

I have a project that involves a swim/spa; a packaged spa unit by code.

It's a Catalina C621

The specs online say it's a 40A spa pack, and a 50A pool pack, but I have since been told by the manufacturer that the pool pack is 60A 120/240v.

My issue is that I used Square D QO gear, and they don't make a 120/240v 60A GFCI breaker. This swim/spa is recessed into the deck; I have conduits going from the panel underground into the pit, and I have nowhere to mount an accessible disconnect of another brand to use a 120/240v GFI breaker.

So anyway, is there an issue by code with me splitting the heat from the pumps so that I can use smaller breakers?

Waiting on a response for specs, but I'm guessing it will be a 40A 240v Heat pack and a 20A 120v circuit for pumps.


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[goldstar]

duplicate

 

[goldstar]

I saw this spec on-line : http://www.catalinaswimspas.com/CatalinaSeries/18-20CatalinaDual.html . Looks like a quality unit. To try to answer your question, I think the problem you might have is that you would not be wiring the unit in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. In addition, I'd be willing to bet that the heat pack and circulator motors are controlled through a common PC board so I don't know how you'd be able to wire them independently and still have control. Wish I had better news for you.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Do not mess with the pool spa wiring. According to the specs it is 50 amp and I bet that is what it will be when you get it.

Are you aware that will need to install the equipotential bonding ?

 

[brantmacga]

Do not mess with the pool spa wiring. According to the specs it is 50 amp and I bet that is what it will be when you get it.

Are you aware that will need to install the equipotential bonding ?

Yes..... Bonding is done

I asked them about specs saying 50A, was told they changed to a 60A pool pack.


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[Dennis Alwon]

I don't understand -- you have to have a place to add a disconnect by the spa. Install a home depot box there. otherwise and a small sub panel from the main and put a gfci there.

BTW-- is this the sq.d homeline? Because sq.d does make a dp 60 gfci

https://www.amazon.com/Square-Schneider-Electric-QO260GFICP-Two-Pole/dp/B00DW474GE

 

[goldstar]

Do not mess with the pool spa wiring. According to the specs it is 50 amp and I bet that is what it will be when you get it.

Are you aware that will need to install the equipotential bonding ?

Just curious, how do you install an EPB grid under a wooden deck. I was under the impression that if this unit is not installed below ground level as part of a pool and is LISTED as a self contained packaged unit you would not need the grid. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[iwire]

So anyway, is there an issue by code with me splitting the heat from the pumps so that I can use smaller breakers?

In my opinion that much modification of listed equipment could result in an inspector red tagging it based on 110.3(B). Unless of the manufacturer provides the instructions to do it.

This is not something I would choose to do for a customer even if it seems easy to do.

 

[brantmacga]

Pic to clarify space .....


Square D makes a QO260GFI, but it's 208/240v only


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[brantmacga]

Just curious, how do you install an EPB grid under a wooden deck. I was under the impression that if this unit is not installed below ground level as part of a pool and is LISTED as a self contained packaged unit you would not need the grid. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's concrete ..... Code on this is a #8 conductor looped around the perimeter


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[goldstar]

It's concrete ..... Code on this is a #8 conductor looped around the perimeter


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OK. I believe in that case you need the grid as the tub will actually sit below grade.

 

[peterlarsen.suntec]

Just curious, how do you install an EPB grid under a wooden deck. I was under the impression that if this unit is not installed below ground level as part of a pool and is LISTED as a self contained packaged unit you would not need the grid. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I worked as a pool and spa install and service tech for 12 years. I received training and was approved to do pool bonding. Got out of the industry for 10 years. Then got back in back in 2012 for about a year. The company I worked for was cutting concrete pads and installing a "bonding ring" as per local AHJ requirements. It cost way too much money and created issues with our delivery and install process. I thought it was ridiculous as the ring was required regardless of weather or not any metal fixtures were within 6 ft of the water. I did some research and found a NFPA paper developed by industry experts (Watkins Manufacturing) that argued for an exception in the 2011 NEC the bonding grid in the case of UL listed portable self contained pools and spas. I believe the exception is in 680.26(B)(2).
Heres the TIA
//cloud.tapatalk.com/s/57c587d340f94/spabonding.pdf


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[brantmacga]

OK. I believe in that case you need the grid as the tub will actually sit below grade.

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[Little Bill]

I found out that when some specs say "40A and 50A" but other documentation says use a "50A or 60A" breaker that the higher (50 or 60) is what you protect it with.
The specs did not include the 125%.

40A x 125% = 50A
50A x 125% = 62.5 (usually the specs will say 48A 48 x 125% = 60A)

Also some will give you the option of running both pumps and heater at the same time and will require a 60A or just one pump and heater at the same time you can protect with 50A

 

[brantmacga]

Been back and forth on the phone with manufacturer asking for specs so I can verify size; they never emailed me any info, but just called and said 50A is good..... :/


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[goldstar]

Been back and forth on the phone with manufacturer asking for specs so I can verify size; they never emailed me any info, but just called and said 50A is good..... :/

:happyyes:
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bingo! Thank you Dennis. :happyyes:

 

[brantmacga]

Splitting packaged spa wiring components

I don't understand -- you have to have a place to add a disconnect by the spa. Install a home depot box there. otherwise and a small sub panel from the main and put a gfci there.

Can you clarify this for me? Reading through 680 section IV on spa units, I don't see a requirement for a disconnect at the spa.

This is a single family dwelling, so the emergency cut-off switch rule doesn't apply.

Am I missing something else ?


Edit ..... Wasn't sure if you saw my other reply on the breaker, but the square d 60A GFI's are 208/240v only; it has a neutral pigtail for reference only. There is not place on the breaker to connect a neutral conductor.



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[JFletcher]

Can you clarify this for me? Reading through 680 section IV on spa units, I don't see a requirement for a disconnect at the spa.

This is a single family dwelling, so the emergency cut-off switch rule doesn't apply.

Am I missing something else ?


Edit ..... Wasn't sure if you saw my other reply on the breaker, but the square d 60A GFI's are 208/240v only; it has a neutral pigtail for reference only. There is not place on the breaker to connect a neutral conductor.



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See 680.42 ( 'must comply with parts I and II of this article') (2008 NEC ref, may have changed in the 14 edition), which kicks you back to 680.12. You have to have a disco, but not an e-switch, on single family dwellings.

Easy enough to put a 60A disco (GFCI if needed) at the spa. We typically run from a 50-60A regular breaker from the main/sub panel to the 50-60A disco, to the spa. Remember spas have to be sized as continuous loads so if the mfg lists 48A (limited I guess by 680.9) on the nameplate you'll need the 60A breakers.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

As jfletcher stated you need a disconnect just like you would for any motor but the emer. switch is not needed. The 2014 is the same.

Goldstar, the tub pictured on the link does not look like it will meet the requirements of this exception

(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a
common frame or base shall be permitted. The metal bands
or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required
to be bonded as required in 680.26.
Equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces in accordance
with 680.26(B)(2) shall not be required to be provided
for spas and hot tubs where all of the following
conditions apply:
(1) The spa or hot tub shall be listed as a self-contained spa
for aboveground use.
(2) The spa or hot tub shall not be identified as suitable
only for indoor use.
(3) The installation shall be in accordance with the manufacturer’s
instructions and shall be located on or above
grade.
(4) The top rim of the spa or hot tub shall be at least
710 mm (28 in.) above all perimeter surfaces that are
within 760 mm (30 in.), measured horizontally from
the spa or hot tub. The height of nonconductive external
steps for entry to or exit from the self-contained spa
shall not be used to reduce or increase this rim height
measurement.

 

[goldstar]

Goldstar, the tub pictured on the link does not look like it will meet the requirements of this exception

Agreed.