Sump pump and GFCI protection?

[Dennis Alwon]

Inspectors are always telling me that a single receptacle on a airhandler/furnace is acceptable for the condensate pump . Most of the time it is in the basement and readily accessible on ground level. It's the reason I use singles on sump pumps and the like. Is this wrong? I am here to learn not trying to be a pain.

I have done the same but I think it is wrong however, others disagree with me. If the inspector ok's it then go with it.

The reason I think it's not okay because the code is clear about not accepting a single receptacle in the crawl space even for the same exact equipment that many are saying is okay in the unfinished basement. That does not make sense to me.

I still think the single recep. deal was basically meant for refrig. and freezer. I could be wrong and I often am but that is what I think.

 

[infinity]

In the 1993 code there was an exception that specifically permitted a basement sump pump to be connected to a non-GFCI protected receptacle. This exception was deleted by the action on proposal 2-139 for the 1996 code. The substantiation was that the exception was no longer needed as the result of the revision to Exception #1 in the section. The panel agreed.
Don

So what you're saying Don, is that as it stands now with the 2005 NEC, a single non-GFCI receptacle is permitted to supply a sump pump receptacle in an unfinished basement.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

In the 1993 code there was an exception that specifically permitted a basement sump pump to be connected to a non-GFCI protected receptacle. This exception was deleted by the action on proposal 2-139 for the 1996 code. The substantiation was that the exception was no longer needed as the result of the revision to Exception #1 in the section. The panel agreed.
Don

So, you are saying that a sump pump in an unfinished basement does not need a GFI if it is on a single recep?

 

[stickboy1375]

If it does, I'd like a code article please...

 

[bstoin]

Oh man! here we go again.

 

[M. D.]

Here is an article that tells of the evolution of GFCI protection .
http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/06_c/cook.html

 

[M. D.]

It mentions what Don refered to.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I am saying that it is CMP 2's intent that a sump pump in a basement on a single receptacle does not require GFCI protection under the current code.
Don

 

[Oakey]

Crawl space included?

 

[infinity]

Crawl space included?

A basement and a crawl space are two different animals.

 

[wbalsam1]

I am saying that it is CMP 2's intent that a sump pump in a basement on a single receptacle does not require GFCI protection under the current code.
Don

They should have put that in the code...:grin:

 

[George Stolz]

I've always considered the single receptacle acceptable for the sump myself. I just read through the thread and was surprised at the initial response - I'd never thought of it as "not" dedicated space. Interesting discussion.

 

[electricmanscott]

I'm with George on this. In my mind it has always been pretty clear that the single receptacle would be allowed for something like this. There is nothing that says the receptacle must be behind an appliance that is large enough to make the receptacle inaccessible without moving it.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

What I find intriguing is that a single rec. non GFCI is not acceptable in a crawl for any reason. It appears to me that the likelyhood of it being used for personnel is not as great as it would be in an unfinished basement totally accessible.

The except. 1 to articles 210.8(A)(2) & 210.8(A)(5) appear to support the idea that the NEC is trying to keep the receptacles from being used for personnel. That's why I always thought that except. 2 was meant for appliances-- by def. I still don't see a sump pump as an appliance-- oh well.

 

[stickboy1375]

Next year it won't even matter....

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This is for NC applications

I just checked the amendments to the NEC for NC.
AMENDMENT 210.8(A)(3)
(3) Outdoors
Exception No. 1 to (3): Receptacles that are not readily acces -
sible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric
snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be in -
stalled in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article
426.
Exception No. 2 to (3): A single outlet receptacle supplied by
dedicated branch circuit which is located and identified for
specific use by a sewage lift pump.
70-48.1
NORTH CAROLINA ELECTRICAL CODE, 2005 EDITION

Notice this is for sewer lift pumps only and for outdoor installations and a dedicated cir. No exception for the crawl space or for a sump pump.

I just spoke to the state inspector and he said he would extend this exception to unfinished basement for a sewer pump only because of health issues if the sewer pump stopped working.

I still do not see how one can use 210.8 (A) (5) except 2 in the case of a sump pump. The exception is for appliances not for all utilization equipment. An appliance is a utilization equipment but not all utilization equipment are appliances-- logic 101. Utilization equip. is anything that plugs in an appliance is pretty specific and defined in definitions with some concrete examples.

 

[jaylectricity]

Exception No. 2 to (3): A single outlet receptacle supplied by
dedicated branch circuit which is located and identified for
specific use by a sewage lift pump.

I still do not see how one can use 210.8 (A) (5) except 2 in the case of a sump pump. The exception is for appliances not for all utilization equipment. An appliance is a utilization equipment but not all utilization equipment are appliances-- logic 101. Utilization equip. is anything that plugs in an appliance is pretty specific and defined in definitions with some concrete examples.

The definition is specific in one way, and vague in another way. It defines appliances as utilization equipment, generally other than industrial, that is normally built in standardized sizes or types and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or many functions such as clothes washing, air conditioning, food mixing, deep frying, and so forth. How does that not cover a sump pump? And how can it be pretty specific with so many variable words?


I think a sump pump is an appliance unless the only argument to the contrary is that your typical homeowner isn't using the appliance. It is operating on its own in the ground in a bowl full of water.

Besides that:

Why does it matter if it is a dedicated circuit or not? If the circuit terminates in the box of the sump pump receptacle, it is not meant to GFI protect any other part of the circuit.

The crawl space part that has come up in this discussion seems to be addressing personnel who may need to work in said crawl space. Shouldn't it be that personnel's responsibility to get GFI taps for his tools? I know OSHA doesn't exactly reach into the depths of every single job, but isn't it against OSHA regulations NOT to have GFI protection for your own equipment?

It has been correctly pointed out to me that if your sump pump is causing a ground fault, your pump or GFI needs to be replaced. In the town of Hull in Massachusetts the salt air cross breeze between the ocean and the bay obliterate equipment and wiring. This kind of thing makes preventative maintenance difficult (and expensive) to gauge.

OK, I think I made a point or two somewhere in there and maybe asked a few questions.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't know why it must be a dedicated circuit. I didn't write the words but nonetheless that's what is said.
Tell me this. According to your definition of appliance what would not be an appliance?
The definition is giving specific words to what they are calling an appliance. You can deduce from that they are talking about kitchen equipment and w/d for the most part.

I guess we will have to disagree on what an appliance is. You seem to think that any equipment would be an appliance and that is your right.

I am relating how I feel and how the state of NC feels about it. A sump pump is not an appliance

 

[jaylectricity]

I don't know why it must be a dedicated circuit. I didn't write the words but nonetheless that's what is said.
Tell me this. According to your definition of appliance what would not be an appliance?
The definition is giving specific words to what they are calling an appliance. You can deduce from that they are talking about kitchen equipment and w/d for the most part.

I guess we will have to disagree on what an appliance is. You seem to think that any equipment would be an appliance and that is your right.

I'm not asking you if the words exist regarding it being a dedicated circuit. I was asking if you could explain why the words exist. If you cannot, that is OK I can retract that question from you and leave it out there for someone else to take a crack at it.

Appliances:

A refrigerator is an appliance because it uses electricity to cool the air inside keeping the bacteria population from exploding. You can feel cool air.
A blender is an appliance because it uses electricity to chop and mix food/liquid particles. You can feel the difference a blender makes.
A dryer is an appliance because it uses electricity to heat the air inside to evaporate water from wet fabrics. You can feel that the fabric is dry now.
The sump pump is an appliance because it uses electricity to move water from one place to another. You can feel that there is no water on your basement floor.
All of these affect ones sense of touch.

Intangible:
adjective not tangible; incapable of being perceived by the sense of touch, as incorporeal or immaterial things; impalpable.


The television is not an appliance because it is only used to change radio waves and cable signals to alter light and only affects ones sense of sight, which is intangible.
The radio is not an appliance because it changes those same signals into sound, which is intangible.
The TV and radio may also produce tangible things (such as heat or static electricity) but that is not their purpose.

Would you agree with that?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

No I cannot agree with that rational.

You cannot feel the lack of something.
You don't feel the difference a blender makes you see the difference a blender makes. You are really searching for some way to make it logical but I don't see it. Sorry