Sump pump and GFCI protection?

[jaylectricity]

No I cannot agree with that rational.

You cannot feel the lack of something.
You don't feel the difference a blender makes you see the difference a blender makes. You are really searching for some way to make it logical but I don't see it. Sorry

Actually you can feel, see, taste, smell the blender makes and hear it while it does its work. But I can let go of that.

What I'm searching for is the real definition of an appliance and I'm using a sump pump as an illustration.

Let's see how a sump pump fits into the NEC definition of appliance
The definition says:
Utilization equipment generally other than industrial
A sump pump is utilization equipment and is generally not industrial.
Normally built in standardized sizes and types
Sump pumps are normally built in standardized sizes and types
Is installed or connected as a unit
A sump pump is connected as a unit as much as a fridge is by plugging it in
to perform one or many functions
A sump pump performs two functions, to detect a rising water level and to pump that water to a safer area
such as clothes washing, air conditioning, food mixing, deep frying, and so forth
A sump pump is as motorized as a food mixer, moves water around like a washer machine, and so forth

With all due respect, I am just looking for some answers on this. Maybe I do believe that everything is an appliance at the moment. I didn't even really think about that until I read this discussion. I would like to know what isn't an appliance, because if it can be proven that everything is an appliance that will completely change the way I see the code. Whereas if I had a better idea of what isn't an appliance, I could continue wiring accordingly.

It is completely within your right to avoid helping me, in which case I apologize for trying to discuss this with you. If you would care to help me, I welcome it. That was my reason for joining this forum...to learn.

At any rate, I wish you a good evening. If anyone else wishes to comment feel free to do so, here or in a private message.

 

[wbalsam1]

A sump pump is an appliance. See post #14

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think a sumppump is a "utilization equipment". The definition of equipment in the code even mentions appliance. I don't want to argue it forever, though.

Of course a sump pump is a utilization equipment-- per nec definition anything that plugs in is a utilization equipment but that does not make it an appliance. The def. of appliance says it is a utilization equip. that is....

It does not say a utilization equip is an appliance.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It is completely within your right to avoid helping me, in which case I apologize for trying to discuss this with you. If you would care to help me, I welcome it. That was my reason for joining this forum...to learn.

At any rate, I wish you a good evening. If anyone else wishes to comment feel free to do so, here or in a private message.

I have no problem discussing this with you and I am not angered by your comments. I, like you, was searching for the same answers but I feel like I see the difference now. I use to think an appliance is a utilization equipment therefore everything could be defined as an appliance.

I see it more as the utilization equipment as the general category of all equip. that is plugged in-- def. in NEC equip. that utilizes electric energy for...
No question in my mind that a sump pump is a type of utilization equip.

An appliance is a more specific category of utilization equip. (U.E.) The analogy I would use is that a dog is an animal but not all animals are dogs. The same is true for appliance and U.E. Appliances are U.E. but not all U.E. are appliances

Without trying to read into the def. What are the first things that pop into your mind when asked what is an appliance. I would bet you would say many of the items listed in the def. of appliance. Does that mean that only those items mentioned are appliances? No, there are others-- The definition is not great but we do have an preconceived idea of what an appliance is. I just don't see the sump pump as coming close to the def. of appliance

 

[Sierrasparky]

the last sump pump I saw had a tag on the cord requiring a GFCI

 

[wbalsam1]

.....per nec definition anything that plugs in is a utilization equipment but that does not make it an appliance. The def. of appliance says it is a utilization equip.

Huh?????:-? ......One problem with arguing with yourself, is that you never know who wins....:grin: :grin:

 

[iwire]

I just don't see the sump pump as coming close to the def. of appliance

Do you think the following equipment are appliances?

Household water heaters?

Steam Boilers?

Oil or Gas fired furnaces?

Paddle fans?

Cord connected pipe heating cables?

High pressure spray washers?

They are all found in Article 422 Appliances.

My point is it does not matter what we think an appliance is or is not. What is important is what the NEC considers an appliance.

It is clear from Don's post that the CMP considers a sump pump an appliance.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Dennis,

I see it more as the utilization equipment as the general category of all equip. that is plugged in...

Not just equipment that is plugged in...all equipment that uses electrical energy to do work or provide heat or light.
Don

 

[dnem]

I think the "appliance" debate is an easy call. . The sump is an appliance. . But the "dedicated space" debate is a harder call.

Our building department accepts the application of 210.8(A)(2)x2 and (A)(5)x2 for appliances that do not physically cover the receptacle. . But I acknowledge that the code wording about the "dedicated space" says, ?A single or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance ?..? can be understood as requiring the plug within the dedicated space.

The point that I wanted to make was that whether or not a GFCI is required/installed, if the sump doesn?t spec a dedicated circuit, I would suggest you put the sump on a circuit that contains only 2 items:
1] the sump plug
2] a light (or several lights) in a main floor hallway

And my reason is this:
It?s much harder to not notice a hallway light that?s not working in contrast to a room light that might not get used when lamps or other lights may be used instead. . A basement load also might not be immediately discovered. . A stair light would be a dangerous/fall hazard if on a circuit tripped by the sump. . So the main floor hall is the best attention getter. . A 60w bulb only draws half an amp, so even 2 hall lights would only add an amp to the circuit and not make it significantly more likely to overcurrent trip. . Yet it provides a great ?trouble signal? that is much better than the open-the-basement-door-and-see-a-flooded-basement ?trouble signal?.

Also if the sump plug is a GFCI, I would put the main floor hall light wiring on the GFCI load terminals.

David

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Okay, I see many problems with the wording of this article and its definition.

If I have a table saw in my unfinished basement with a single receptacle and the saw occupies the space where the receptacle is, then I don't need a gfci because the table saw is an appliance. No????Yes???

 

[tom baker]

It appears that the dedicated space exemption for GFCIs will be deleted from the 2008 NEC.
If any device needs a GFCI, its a sump pump.

 

[iwire]

Okay, I see many problems with the wording of this article and its definition.

You seem to be alone in that.

If I have a table saw in my unfinished basement with a single receptacle and the saw occupies the space where the receptacle is, then I don't need a gfci because the table saw is an appliance. No????Yes???

IMO you would not need a GFCI, the saw would be a motor driven appliance.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You seem to be alone in that..

I don't think I am alone with it at all.

IMO you would not need a GFCI, the saw would be a motor driven appliance.

I am totally dumbfounded to hear this reply from you. Basically I could have a single receptacle in many locations in an unfinished basement and as long as I have a drill press plug in one, a large fan in the other, a saw, a dust collector, etc so every outlet was occupied by a large appliance, then I would not need gfci for any of these.

A shop in the basement with no GFCI protection. I think you or I are totally miss reading the point of art. 210.8(A)(5)

 

[stickboy1375]

Just paint the walls and I consider the room finished... :grin:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am finished with this thread. I have no more to give on this subject. I will do what I think is right and anyone else can do what they want or can get away with. As been said before---2008 it won't make no never mind anyway.

PS you all wore me out.:grin:

 

[stickboy1375]

As noted above, GFCI protection has been required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in the bathroom area of a dwelling unit for more than 20 yr.

GFCI protection devices are also required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located in garages and grade-level portions of unfinished or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of a dwelling unit [210.8(A)(2)]. However, there are a couple of exceptions to this rule. GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for a garage door opener. Nor are they required for a receptacle on a dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.

What about those receptacles located outdoors? Per 210.8(A)(3), all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles outside of a dwelling unit, including receptacles installed under the eaves of roofs, shall be GFCI-protected. The only exception to this rule is that GFCI protection is not required for fixed electric snow melting or de-icing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28.

What about crawl spaces and unfinished areas of the basement? Once again, all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed within a dwelling unit crawl space [210.8(4)] or in each unfinished portion of a basement not intended as a habitable room but used for storage or as a work area [210.8(5)], must be GFCI-protected. However, the Code does note a few exceptions to these rules: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible or are located on a dedicated branch circuit and identified for a specific cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

I learn something new everyday...

 

[George Stolz]

PS you all wore me out.:grin:

Does that mean your avatar will quit flipping?

It can be an endurance run sometimes, can't it. And I don't think Mike Whitt even chimed in on this one - he's mastered wearing me out.

 

[iwire]

A shop in the basement with no GFCI protection. I think you or I are totally miss reading the point of art. 210.8(A)(5)

IMHO you are missing the mission of 210.8(A).

IMHO 210.8(A) is aimed at protecting users of handheld, often moved, tools and appliances.....the types of loads that have a tendency to lose the continuity of the EGC. Broken cords, broken ground pins on the plugs etc. The types of appliances that may not even have an EGC, lamps, double insulated tools etc.

I could very well have a 240 volt radial or table saw in that same shop and it would not require GFCI protection.

Why are 240 volt outlets and outlets greater than 30 amps excluded from the GFCI requirements?

IMO it is because equipment that uses more than 120 volts or more than 30 amps is the type of equipment that stays put, the integrity of the EGC is much less in question.

It's all a moot point as the exceptions for specific appliances are being removed in 2008.

 

[iwire]

I will do what I think is right and anyone else can do what they want or can get away with. As been said before---

Dennis who said they would not provide GFCI protection?

We are taking about what the NEC requires not what is a good idea.

Do you feel the CMP was trying to 'get away with something' when they took the position that a sump pump was a GFCI?

I think you have closed your mind to new ideas on this thread.


(For what it's worth my own sump pump was on a GFCI for at least 3 years without a problem)

 

[M. D.]

As noted above, GFCI protection has been required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles in the bathroom area of a dwelling unit for more than 20 yr.

GFCI protection devices are also required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles located in garages and grade-level portions of unfinished or finished accessory buildings used for storage or work areas of a dwelling unit [210.8(A)(2)]. However, there are a couple of exceptions to this rule. GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible, such as a ceiling-mounted receptacle for a garage door opener. Nor are they required for a receptacle on a dedicated branch circuit located and identified for a cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a refrigerator or freezer.

What about those receptacles located outdoors? Per 210.8(A)(3), all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles outside of a dwelling unit, including receptacles installed under the eaves of roofs, shall be GFCI-protected. The only exception to this rule is that GFCI protection is not required for fixed electric snow melting or de-icing equipment receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit in accordance with 426.28.

What about crawl spaces and unfinished areas of the basement? Once again, all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles installed within a dwelling unit crawl space [210.8(4)] or in each unfinished portion of a basement not intended as a habitable room but used for storage or as a work area [210.8(5)], must be GFCI-protected. However, the Code does note a few exceptions to these rules: GFCI protection is not required for receptacles that are not readily accessible or are located on a dedicated branch circuit and identified for a specific cord-and-plug-connected appliance, such as a sump pump.

I learn something new everyday...

You may want to credit the author of this. It looks a bit like a piece that Mike Holt wrote for EC&M??

Allen ,there is a consensus in the industry that the sump pump recep. does fall under the exception , like it or not. If you were an inspector and failed an electrician because he did not G.F.C.I the rec. for the pump , I have no doubt that the electrician would prevail if the issue were to be judged, based solely on the requirement found in the NEC.

As has been pointed out, it gets a little funky around the installation instructions of a given appliance but again the consensus is that if the instructions are to be followed. If the appliance calls for GFCI then protect it , if not do what you think is in yours and the customers best interest.