My question relates to a temporary service on a pole. Below the meter pan is a 4 circuit weatherproof panel with 2 20 amp breakers that feed 2 gfi receptacles below the panel. My question is, "does the panel require a a?main disconnect, or do the 2 breakers fulfill the requirement? I seem to think that there should be a main disconnect, and then the branch circuit breakers, my boss says because there are less than 6 breakers, no main is needed.. What is the answer? TY, Andrew
Temporary Service
- Thread starter NYEIS
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throttlebody
Senior Member
- Location
- Martinsburg, WV
Re: Temporary Service
230.71(A)[2002 NEC]
Edit:
Didn't see your last post.
The service disconnecting means for each service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception Nos. 1,3,4,5, shall consist of not more than six switches or set of circuit breakers, or combination of not more than six switches and set of circuit breakers, mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard. There shall be no more than six sets of disconnects per service grouped in any one location. For the purpose of this section, disconnecting means used soley for power monitoring equipment,[added in 2005 - transient voltages, surge suppressors], or the control circuit of the ground-fault protection system or power operable service disconnecting means, installed as part of the listed equipment, shall not be considered a service disconnecting means.
[ February 16, 2006, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: throttlebody ]
230.71(A)[2002 NEC]
Edit:
Didn't see your last post.
The service disconnecting means for each service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service-entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception Nos. 1,3,4,5, shall consist of not more than six switches or set of circuit breakers, or combination of not more than six switches and set of circuit breakers, mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard. There shall be no more than six sets of disconnects per service grouped in any one location. For the purpose of this section, disconnecting means used soley for power monitoring equipment,[added in 2005 - transient voltages, surge suppressors], or the control circuit of the ground-fault protection system or power operable service disconnecting means, installed as part of the listed equipment, shall not be considered a service disconnecting means.
[ February 16, 2006, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: throttlebody ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Temporary Service
This is a simple question, the answer is found in 408
This is a simple question, the answer is found in 408
The fact that you are using a panelboard instead of a power outlet will require a main to be installed in this panel.
throttlebody
Senior Member
- Location
- Martinsburg, WV
Re: Temporary Service
I believe your boss is referring to a power panelboard. In the classification it shall have 10% or less of the OCPDs for lighting and appliance branch circuits, while 408.36(B) states where it has more than 10% serving branch circuits 30amps or less, it shall have protection on the supply side. There is an exception to this. Individual protection is not required where used as service equipment with multiple disconnecting means in accordance with 230.71
edited the percentage signs of OCPDs
[ February 16, 2006, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: throttlebody ]
I believe your boss is referring to a power panelboard. In the classification it shall have 10% or less of the OCPDs for lighting and appliance branch circuits, while 408.36(B) states where it has more than 10% serving branch circuits 30amps or less, it shall have protection on the supply side. There is an exception to this. Individual protection is not required where used as service equipment with multiple disconnecting means in accordance with 230.71
edited the percentage signs of OCPDs
[ February 16, 2006, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: throttlebody ]
Re: Temporary Service
NYEIS, "the code" answer and what might be allowed in this situation may vary due to the fact its a temporary service. jw pointed out the key in 408.36, since it is technically a L&A panelboard it is limited to not more than two main breakers.
It can be argued, that since you have only two breakers in the panel, it is in compliance.
In my expeirence, inspectors often overlook that particular rule on a temporary service and you will often see up to 6 breakers with no main on these. I assume because they are "temporary", often "outside" and its obvious the loads are unlikely to be higher than the conductor rating.
In other words, "temporaries" are often treated differently.
NYEIS, "the code" answer and what might be allowed in this situation may vary due to the fact its a temporary service. jw pointed out the key in 408.36, since it is technically a L&A panelboard it is limited to not more than two main breakers.
It can be argued, that since you have only two breakers in the panel, it is in compliance.
In my expeirence, inspectors often overlook that particular rule on a temporary service and you will often see up to 6 breakers with no main on these. I assume because they are "temporary", often "outside" and its obvious the loads are unlikely to be higher than the conductor rating.
In other words, "temporaries" are often treated differently.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Temporary Service
If this is a all-in-one you've purchased as a temp (as in, it's supposed to be used as a temp, then you should have a 50 amp breaker with a 50 amp receptacle on the thing. If you look closely at it, you'll find it's called (among other things) a power outlet.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Temporary Service
Andrew
Guess who this is
Terry is correct!!
Article 590 Temporary Installations.
"590.4(A)Services. Services shall be installed in conformance with Article 230."
This means that temporary services need to conform completely with Article 230.
PART VI Service Equipment - Disconnecting Means
230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
The service disconnecting means for each service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception Nos. 1, 3, 4, or 5, shall consist of not more than six switches or sets of circuit breakers, or a combination of not more than six switches and sets of circuit breakers,
mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard.
The temporary service you are inquiring about meets the requirements of service disconnecting means and is compliant - even if that panel enclosure has the capability of more than the 2 overcurrent devices installed at the time of inspection.
I am glad to see you are reaching out to make sure you are correct.
Andrew
Guess who this is
Terry is correct!!
Article 590 Temporary Installations.
"590.4(A)Services. Services shall be installed in conformance with Article 230."
This means that temporary services need to conform completely with Article 230.
PART VI Service Equipment - Disconnecting Means
230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
The service disconnecting means for each service permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service entrance conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception Nos. 1, 3, 4, or 5, shall consist of not more than six switches or sets of circuit breakers, or a combination of not more than six switches and sets of circuit breakers,
mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard.
The temporary service you are inquiring about meets the requirements of service disconnecting means and is compliant - even if that panel enclosure has the capability of more than the 2 overcurrent devices installed at the time of inspection.
I am glad to see you are reaching out to make sure you are correct.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Temporary Service
Pierre,
Don
Pierre,
The panel is not protected on the supply side as required by 408.36.
Don
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Temporary Service
I do not believe that 408.36 is applicable here.
... but in rereading 230.70, the disconnecting means shall disconnect all service conductors from the supply - of which the 2 breakers in Andrew's OP do not comply with. So I am taking back what I originally stated. Those two breaker do not disconnect the supply if this is an MLO panel with the SE conductors terminating to the lugs. A disconnect for those conductors would be required.
I do not believe that 408.36 is applicable here.
... but in rereading 230.70, the disconnecting means shall disconnect all service conductors from the supply - of which the 2 breakers in Andrew's OP do not comply with. So I am taking back what I originally stated. Those two breaker do not disconnect the supply if this is an MLO panel with the SE conductors terminating to the lugs. A disconnect for those conductors would be required.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Temporary Service
Pierre,
Don
Pierre,
Why not???
Don
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Temporary Service
I am also eager to learn the answer to this question.
Re: Temporary Service
Thank you for all your help, I am awaiting the last response,as I am leaning also to the 408.36 reply. Also, should not these installation be referred to as Temporary Construction Power Supplies instead of Service, as they are used to supply power convenience outlets, and not service disconnects? To me, six disconnects seems to suggest a distribution panel for six separate services, with panels located elsewhere. Ty again for the help, much appreciated. Andrew
Thank you for all your help, I am awaiting the last response,as I am leaning also to the 408.36 reply. Also, should not these installation be referred to as Temporary Construction Power Supplies instead of Service, as they are used to supply power convenience outlets, and not service disconnects? To me, six disconnects seems to suggest a distribution panel for six separate services, with panels located elsewhere. Ty again for the help, much appreciated. Andrew
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Temporary Service
Here again we have a misconception of what constitutes the service.
If I set a 200 amp panel with a 200 amp main breaker that has space for 42 circuits, what part of this enclosure is the service?
Answer; There will be a possible of four points in this enclosure that will constitute the service. They are as follows;
1) Where the ungrounded (hot) conductors land and the 200 amp breaker (main disconnecting means)
2) The point where the grounded (neutral) conductor lands,
3) The main bonding jumper,
4) The grounding electrode conductor should it be installed in the enclosure as outlined in 250.24(A)(1)
Any thing else that is contained in this panel will need to conform to 408. The service ends with the disconnecting means.
408.3(A)(2) mandates that no uninsulated, ungrounded service busbar or service terminal is exposed to inadvertent contact by persons or maintenance equipment while servicing load terminations.
The only way that this can be achieved is by having a disconnect that will turn everything in the panel off such as a main disconnect.
408.34 define the difference between a power panel and a lighting and appliance panel. The big question is how is the enclosure that is being used for the temp power listed. Is it a panel? Then 408 will apply.
Here again we have a misconception of what constitutes the service.
If I set a 200 amp panel with a 200 amp main breaker that has space for 42 circuits, what part of this enclosure is the service?
Answer; There will be a possible of four points in this enclosure that will constitute the service. They are as follows;
1) Where the ungrounded (hot) conductors land and the 200 amp breaker (main disconnecting means)
2) The point where the grounded (neutral) conductor lands,
3) The main bonding jumper,
4) The grounding electrode conductor should it be installed in the enclosure as outlined in 250.24(A)(1)
Any thing else that is contained in this panel will need to conform to 408. The service ends with the disconnecting means.
408.3(A)(2) mandates that no uninsulated, ungrounded service busbar or service terminal is exposed to inadvertent contact by persons or maintenance equipment while servicing load terminations.
The only way that this can be achieved is by having a disconnect that will turn everything in the panel off such as a main disconnect.
408.34 define the difference between a power panel and a lighting and appliance panel. The big question is how is the enclosure that is being used for the temp power listed. Is it a panel? Then 408 will apply.
Re: Temporary Service
JW, you are allowed up to 6 of those 200 amp mb panelboards used as service equip.When a panelboard is used as service equip, and does not have a main,and is listed for service equip.you are allowed up to 6 sets of breakers,1pole,2pole,3-pole.or any combo of.when used elsewhere as a panelboard (not main service),then 408.36 applies.
Rick
JW, you are allowed up to 6 of those 200 amp mb panelboards used as service equip.When a panelboard is used as service equip, and does not have a main,and is listed for service equip.you are allowed up to 6 sets of breakers,1pole,2pole,3-pole.or any combo of.when used elsewhere as a panelboard (not main service),then 408.36 applies.
Rick
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Temporary Service
Rick don't let Mike suck you into the vortex.
Just nod and say yes..
Rick don't let Mike suck you into the vortex.
Just nod and say yes..
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