Temporary Service

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Re: Temporary Service

Rick,
408.36 applies no matter where the panel is used. The panel must have overcurrent protection on its supply side. That can't be done for a service panel unless you have an main breaker.
Don
 
Re: Temporary Service

Originally posted by RUWired:
JW, you are allowed up to 6 of those 200 amp mb panelboards used as service equip.When a panelboard is used as service equip, and does not have a main,and is listed for service equip.you are allowed up to 6 sets of breakers,1pole,2pole,3-pole.or any combo of.when used elsewhere as a panelboard (not main service),then 408.36 applies.
Rick
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For the sake of argument let?s say that I agree with this post (I do disagree with part of it) how would you fulfill the requirement found in 408.3(A)(1).
:confused:
 
Re: Temporary Service

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
The panel must have overcurrent protection on its supply side. That can't be done for a service panel unless you have an main breaker.
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Better call Siemens, all their metermains have an unprotected 2-space panelboard in them. ;)
 
Re: Temporary Service

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
The panel must have overcurrent protection on its supply side. That can't be done for a service panel unless you have an main breaker.
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Better call Siemens, all their metermains have an unprotected 2-space panelboard in them. ;)
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Are you winking because somethings in your eye or that you already know there is a difference between a power panel and a lighting and appliance panel?
 
Re: Temporary Service

The enclosure is being used to supply 2 GFI outlets on a new house construction site.Does this constitue a panelboard? Everyone has seen this type setup. The thing is that some inspectors let the contractors not use a main in the enclosure, quoting the six disconnect rule.. So,,, what is answer?, A main, disconnect and then the branch circuits or not?
 
Re: Temporary Service

Originally posted by NYEIS:
The enclosure is being used to supply 2 GFI outlets on a new house construction site.Does this constitue a panelboard? Everyone has seen this type setup. The thing is that some inspectors let the contractors not use a main in the enclosure, quoting the six disconnect rule.. So,,, what is answer?, A main, disconnect and then the branch circuits or not?
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The answer you are seeking will be found in 408.36
 
Re: Temporary Service

Don't forget now that 408.36 exception #1 allows not to have indivual protection if,the overcurrent protection is not greater than the rating of the panelboard.(the buss).So if it has 6 breakers as mains(230.71)the total combined ampacity of all the breakers cannot exceed the buss.With his few 20 amp breakers,.........100 amp service. 230.71 /408.36 allows it.
Rick
 
Re: Temporary Service

Originally posted by RUWired:
Don't forget now that 408.36 exception #1 allows not to have indivual protection if,the overcurrent protection is not greater than the rating of the panelboard.(the buss).So if it has 6 breakers as mains(230.71)the total combined ampacity of all the breakers cannot exceed the buss.With his few 20 amp breakers,.........100 amp service. 230.71 /408.36 allows it.
Rick
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Article 230 addresses services

Article 408 addresses swithchboards and panelboards.

When a panelboard is being used for a service enclosure it will be required to comply with both articles. 408.36 will nullify 230.71(B) if the breakers are 30 amps or less and utilize the grounded (neutral) conductor.

Should 10% or more of the single pole breakers be 30 amps or less and utilize the grounded (neutral) conductor then no more than two mains will be required for this lighting and appliance panelboard.
:)
 
Re: Temporary Service

Rick,
Don't forget now that 408.36 exception #1 allows not to have indivual protection if,the overcurrent protection is not greater than the rating of the panelboard.(the buss).
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You left a key word out of that exception.
Exception No. 1: Individual protection for a lighting and appliance panelboard shall not be required if the panelboard feeder has overcurrent protection not greater than the rating of the panelboard.
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Overcurrent protective devices in the panel do not provide overcurrent protection for the feeder. They can provide overload protection for the feeder, but not overcurrent protection as required in the exception.
Don
 
Re: Temporary Service

If i included it (feeder) or not, the same exception still holds.The NEC has always allowed the 6-hand rule, and all i am saying is that this article backs it up.These 6 overcurrent devices are protecting the feeder(the service in this case). The same can be true in xrfmr secondary conductors.
Rick
 
Re: Temporary Service

If i have a service ,(anywhere) and i gets smacked with whatever and shorts out ,the MB isn't going to protect it. The primary fuse on the xfrnr is protecting the feeder.
Rick
 
Re: Temporary Service

Rick,
There is nothing in the code that says Article 230 rules modify Article 408 rules. They both apply equally. You can't provide overcurrent protection at the load end of a feeder and the exception does not apply. The six disconnect rule has nothing to do with the rule that requires overcurrent protection on the supply side of a lighting and appliance branch circuit panel. It would apply to a power panel board that does not require overcurrent protection on its line side.
Don

[ February 19, 2006, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]
 
Re: Temporary Service

Rick,
If i have a service ,(anywhere) and i gets smacked with whatever and shorts out ,the MB isn't going to protect it. The primary fuse on the xfrnr is protecting the feeder.
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The service conductors are not required to have overcurrent protection because you can't provide overcurrent protection at the load end of any set of conductors. They are required to have overload protection and that can be provided at the load end, but note that when the 2 to 6 disconnect rule is applied, the service conductors are no longer required to have protection from overload because the code permits the sum of the 2 to 6 overload protective devices to exceed the ampacity of the service conductors.
The utility primary fuses are not intended to provide protection for the service conductors.
Don
 
Re: Temporary Service

Rick,
The same can be true in xrfmr secondary conductors.
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The only time the NEC permits the primary OCPD to protect the secondary conductors is when the transformer is a single phase two wire to two wire transformer or when it is a three wire delta to three wire delta transformer. In all other cases the secondary conductors require overcurrent protection.
Don
 
Re: Temporary Service

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the service conductors are no longer required to have protection from overload because the code permits the sum of the 2 to 6 overload protective devices to exceed the ampacity of the service conductors.
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Not exactly true the NEC always requires overload protection of the service conductors it comes in the form of design not by device. We are never allowed to add more load then the service was designed for.
 
Re: Temporary Service

Originally posted by david:
Not exactly true the NEC always requires overload protection of the service conductors it comes in the form of design not by device. We are never allowed to add more load then the service was designed for.
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:roll:

You know of course that Don was talking about an overload device.

Preventing overload by design is not overload protection.
 
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