Tesla Car Charger???

[mivey]

poco charges you for kWh use, right. so how much do they charge me for my 1kW bulb ??

On a traditional residential rate, the bulb charges would vary with the energy. The rest is a monthly customer fee that won't vary with the bulb usage.


The POCO charges for many things and they are billed out depending on how they vary with measured data and by what other data is available.

At the fundamental level, costs are assigned to four categories (works this way for water, gas, etc. also):

1) Customer: Things that are based on just being a customer, even if nothing is used, like rendering a bill. The meter is read every month so we have basic meter reading costs, bills are generated every month so we have basic billing costs, a basic service is needed to be connected to the grid, etc.

2) Demand: Things that vary with how fast energy is exchanged with the system. This would included generator size, conductor size, transformer size, peak system management & control, etc.

3) Energy: Things that vary with how much energy is used. Includes many variable costs like fuel costs, wear maintenance, etc.

4) Direct: Things that can be directly attributed to the customer. Would include things like requested extra facilities, or specifically dedicated equipment, even charges for a water heater bought from the POCO.

Ideally, you would want to measure both energy and demand but due to historic meter costs, some customers like residential and small commercial have only energy meters. The traditional residential or small commercial rate then has to bill the costs from the four categories using only monthly charges and energy charges.

Often the best effort is made to estimate things like the demand/energy ratio based on load studies and figure out how to wrap demand costs into customer and energy charges. This is not an ideal situation but works sorta ok until you introduce things that mess up the traditional load shapes (like distributed generation) and you then would be better off to measure the demand directly rather than trying to estimate it based on traditional load shapes.

the definition of POWER is energy "produced" or "consumed". and to do that you cannot have a # that is missing time variable.

It is a rate. You may be speaking to the fact that power is a rate that is time dependent because we USUALLY measure it over some time interval and it is the average power over some time interval. You could measure instantaneous power but we USUALLY don't.

But no mistake about it, power is a rate.

would be much easier if things were just kept in std SI units.

Would not change the fact that power is a rate of energy exchange/conversion

and those in-dash car MPG stats, are lying to you folks. better go look at how the car ECU calculates MPG's, because unless the car ECU monitors fuel flow rate with a high sampling rate (several ways to do this, no car i know of does), the MPG thingy in your dash is a feel good meter.

They use miles driven/gallons consumed, much like you would do by hand. The "instantaneous" mpg uses fuel flow or something similar and is not as accurate over the long haul.

 

[ggunn]

poco charges you for kWh use, right. so how much do they charge me for my 1kW bulb ?? now you see you cant answer, and hopefully know why.

Sure I can. The POCO charges you about 10 cents an hour to light that bulb. Where's the mystery in that?

 

[K8MHZ]

and those in-dash car MPG stats, are lying to you folks. better go look at how the car ECU calculates MPG's, because unless the car ECU monitors fuel flow rate with a high sampling rate (several ways to do this, no car i know of does), the MPG thingy in your dash is a feel good meter.

i have seen others monitoring tank fills (how many gallons for each fill) and recording how many miles driven after each fill. after about 5-7 fills you'll get a rather decent reading of your MPG's.

On cars with mileage indicators, the calculation doesn't need a sampling rate. A certain amount will flow through each injector during each pulse. The amount is varied by the pulse width and is easily kept track of by the ECM, since the ECM is the device giving the pulse width commands to the injector output circuits. All the ECM has to do is multiply that value times the number of injector pulses and divide it by the miles the VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor) indicates.

The 'dash' mileage doesn't count any fuel used while the vehicle is in park, and in some vehicles, won't record mileage for very short trips, like backing out of the driveway. That's why you will see lower values if you actually record the amount of fuel that goes into the vehicle and divide that by the odometer mileage.

I use an OBD II scanner that is 'Bluetoothed' to my tablet computer. I can see both instantaneous mpg and average mpg on the screen at the same time. It's very precise, to the point where I could see the difference made by just adding air to my tires. All the info the scanner reads is coming from the vehicle's engine computer.

 

[Besoeker]

poco charges you for kWh use, right. so how much do they charge me for my 1kW bulb ?? now you see you cant answer, and hopefully know why.

I can answer and it is very succinct. They don't.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Probably about $0.10 kw-hr. On residential anyway. yes, they charge for kW-hr use (say, 720). Then they multiply that by the cost per unit (10c/kw-hr).

720kw-hr x $0.10/kw-hr = $72. Because they bill by kw-hr (multiplier of 1), 720 kw-hrs (energy) used in a month equals 720kw (power) used.

However, they are only equal because the way residential billing works. an industrial consumer would pay a higher power bill if they used 720kw for one hour of the month rather than 1kw/hr 24 hours/day for 30 days.

??
i only specified a power rating, the total $ charged depends on how long i run the bulb.

On cars with mileage indicators, the calculation doesn't need a sampling rate. A certain amount will flow through each injector during each pulse. The amount is varied by the pulse width and is easily kept track of by the ECM, since the ECM is the device giving the pulse width commands to the injector output circuits. All the ECM has to do is multiply that value times the number of injector pulses and divide it by the miles the VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor) indicates.

The 'dash' mileage doesn't count any fuel used while the vehicle is in park, and in some vehicles, won't record mileage for very short trips, like backing out of the driveway. That's why you will see lower values if you actually record the amount of fuel that goes into the vehicle and divide that by the odometer mileage.

I use an OBD II scanner that is 'Bluetoothed' to my tablet computer. I can see both instantaneous mpg and average mpg on the screen at the same time. It's very precise, to the point where I could see the difference made by just adding air to my tires. All the info the scanner reads is coming from the vehicle's engine computer.

does your obd2 scanner item show you PWM of injectors? what obd2 code is it?
# of pulses alone does not give you fuel flow. pulse width x fuel pressure does. realtime math using # of pulses, pulse width of each, fuel pressure at each pulse, and mileage between each pulse. ECM would then need to datalog each calculation as it would need a long chain of them to calculate a MPG #. i do not think the ECM can keep track of enough data to do what your are suggesting.

 

[K8MHZ]

??

does your obd2 scanner item show you PWM of injectors? what obd2 code is it?
# of pulses alone does not give you fuel flow. pulse width x fuel pressure does. realtime math using # of pulses, pulse width of each, fuel pressure at each pulse, and mileage between each pulse. ECM would then need to datalog each calculation as it would need a long chain of them to calculate a MPG #. i do not think the ECM can keep track of enough data to do what your are suggesting.

OBD sets codes when sensors are out of parameter. My cheap OBD II scanner won't get into the $06 test mode, so I can't see things like pulse width, O2 cross counts, miss-fire counts, etc. If I wanted to spend a few more bux, I could get one that did. I just have it for my own use, I got out of car repair years ago, but still do my own stuff.

The ECM can easily keep track and does do data logging on newer cars. On older cars, the scanner does the data logging, that's why you don't see many cars from pre 2000 with mileage indicators.

Newer vehicles also integrate GPS and have maps of the entire US in their system. They use info from the GPS to measure speed and distance along with a VSS. I don't see why one would think keeping track of simple data like injector performance would be a problem.

 

[Besoeker]

??
i only specified a power rating, the total $ charged depends on how long i run the bulb.

I was answering your question:

how much do they charge me for my 1kW bulb

They don't charge for it. I doubt they would sell you one.

 

[ggunn]

??
i only specified a power rating, the total $ charged depends on how long i run the bulb.

Yes. Your point being?

 

[FionaZuppa]

OBD sets codes when sensors are out of parameter. My cheap OBD II scanner won't get into the $06 test mode, so I can't see things like pulse width, O2 cross counts, miss-fire counts, etc. If I wanted to spend a few more bux, I could get one that did. I just have it for my own use, I got out of car repair years ago, but still do my own stuff.

The ECM can easily keep track and does do data logging on newer cars. On older cars, the scanner does the data logging, that's why you don't see many cars from pre 2000 with mileage indicators.

Newer vehicles also integrate GPS and have maps of the entire US in their system. They use info from the GPS to measure speed and distance along with a VSS. I don't see why one would think keeping track of simple data like injector performance would be a problem.

with Torque phone app and a obd2 BT adapter (kiwi or the like) you can read every code there is to read, not just CEL codes.

how accurate is GPS when the vehicle is in incline and decent roads? GPS is for the most part a mapping to a 2D surface. but, i do challenge you to ask your vehicle's maker exactly how they calculate total MPG's. my 2004 Acura TL was bogus for the most part.

 

[augie47]

There are other factors to consider....

prius vs pickup

 

[Fulthrotl]

They don't charge for it. I doubt they would sell you one.

in california, it's illegal to sell 100 watt light bulbs anymore.

using a 1,000 watt incandescent light bulb? i'd suspect they
would roll the swat team, with deadly force authorized.

================================
"THIS IS THE POLICE. DROP THAT SWICH, AND PUT YOUR
HANDS IN THE AIR...."

"...sam, if he makes a move for that switch, shoot him."
================================


its been reduced to ridiculous at this point.... we started with
a car charging hookup question, and now, we are at doing
proper milage determination for a gas engine. this has grown
bigger legs than the "ground up or ground down?" thread.....

the best part is that i found that my new work car can have a
tuner in signal hill, near my house, change out the turbo down
pipes, and remap the engine, trans, and rear diff controls, and
will guarantee 500+ RWHP. not bad for a V-6 powered old mans
car. should top out at 185.

screw milage assessments. i'm gonna go have fun.

 

[FionaZuppa]

screw mileage assessments. i'm gonna go have fun.

well, if we support the US Constitution you should be able to pay for energy and use it any way you like, but unfortunately the US Govt is deciding for you. and its also unfortunate, US Govt are pretty dumb at what they do, 1) limiting toilet gal use, so now i flush twice instead of once, wasting water, 2) harmless incandescent bulbs gone for the mercury filled poison in cfl's. and to boot, i was getting more mileage our of the 50cent std bulb vs the $1.25 cfl, cost per hr of use is like 5x the cost!

anyways, back to the pius charger, maybe that lump in the cord is inline gfi, and, the car itself knows the diff between 120vac and 240vac.

my small thermal dynamics plasma cutter has one cord, using cord adapter i can plug it into 120vac or 240vac, machine does its thing. i use 240vac most of the time because if my plasma is cutting my millermatic 251 is usually out too.

 

[Besoeker]

well, if we support the US Constitution you should be able to pay for energy and use it any way you like,

That's fine if such energy is available in any quantity you wish. But it is finite for a number of reasons.

i was getting more mileage our of the 50cent std bulb vs the $1.25 cfl, cost per hr of use is like 5x the cost!

What you appear to completely miss, intentionally or otherwise, is lifetime costs. Energy consumption is vastly reduced and life expectancy is vastly increased.
Do the sums with real data. I have.

anyways, back to the pius charger,

Seem to recall that that it was the Tesla charger that was being diccussed.
But I accept that my ancient and fossified brain might be in error on that point.

 

[Rampage_Rick]

So how does that oval box deal with a 50 amp and 20 amp charge. For instance-- does it really charge quicker at the 50 amp load? And it is using that tiny box instead of a large charger????

All commercially produced EVs and plug-in hybrids have the charger built into the car. All but Tesla use a standardized plug: J1772 (Tesla's connector is physically different but electrically compatible) Average power is 3.3 - 6.6 kW with certain upgraded Teslas capable of 19.2 kW

The DC Fast Chargers (aka Supercharger) is a high-amperage external charger that bypasses the car's built-in charger and dumps DC directly into the car's battery. There are 3 competing standards that use incompatible communications protocols: CHAdeMo, SAE CCS, and Tesla's Supercharger. Minimum power is usually 50kW with newer Superchargers surpassing 120kW

Anyways, the specific unit in question knows which dongle is connected to the input side. If the 5-15 plug is attached, it will signal the car to draw no more than 12 amps. If the 14-50 plug is attached, it will signal the car to draw no more than 40 amps. They also make adapters for 5-20 and 6-15 with appropriate amperage limits imposed by the "mobile connector" box.

2nd, we can argue this until pigs fly, the footprint for smog doesnt go away, it simply moves it from the tailpipe to the electrical generating source. and to boot, most modern day gasoline engines run very clean, more so than coal or oil burning electrical plants.
...
5th'ly, the battery packs are toxic chemicals, there is currently no way to handle massive amounts of waste materials when these bat packs need replacing.

Well the smog thing is moot because you're generating that electricity already just to refine the gasoline. Millions of gigawatt hours are used to refine gasoline, so why not get rid of the middleman and just drive on the electricity directly? The battery thing is also misleading because nobody is tossing 500 lb batteries in the trash with their AAs. I'm not familiar with EV batteries being junked outright since the packs can usually be repaired by replacing a handful of individual cells. Li-ion recycling hasn't taken off yet because it's not worthwhile with 4 oz cellphone batteries. The economics are probably better with 8000 oz car batteries, once there's a sufficient number of them dead in 10-20 years.

there is no regen/recoup of energy when you take your foot off of the ev pedal, nor when you step on it. braking is different.

Not sure of specifics for every EV but "braking" in a Chevy Volt is capable of generating up to 55kW which is then put back into the battery. Friction brakes are only engaged if the required braking force exceeds the 55 kW threshold (i.e. panic stop) or if the vehicle is about to come to a complete stop (the transition from regen to friction braking occurs around 5MPH) Diesel/electric locomotives have long used regenerative braking, but rather than store the energy for future use they dump it into massive resistor banks and turn it into waste heat. With the Volt you can descend a long grade and recharge the battery as you do so (Pike's Peak is a favorite due to the bewilderment at the brake check station when a Volt's brakes read 75° and everybody else is 250-350°) I've got 63k miles on my Volt and the brakes look practically new.

 

[Curious nerd]

Regeneration

Regeneration

You can see on the Prius status display that as soon as you take your foot off the "gas pedal" it begins recharging the battery from the wheels. Toyota wanted to simulate the effect of vacuum braking when you take your foot off in a gas-only car.

Moving pollution to a power plant in Nevada from a car next to the sidewalk protects the health of people in cities, and the power plant can have smog controls that aren't weight-constrained and can have constant professional maintenance. The other advantage is that a stationary power plant is way more fuel-efficient than a car engine.

 

[FionaZuppa]

wow, so many more pro's than con's for EV's, so why havent they taken over the world?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

All commercially produced EVs and plug-in hybrids have the charger built into the car. All but Tesla use a standardized plug: J1772 (Tesla's connector is physically different but electrically compatible) Average power is 3.3 - 6.6 kW with certain upgraded Teslas capable of 19.2 kW

If all cars have a built in charger then why, in the past, have I had to wire chargers on the wall for these cars?

 

[mivey]

wow, so many more pro's than con's for EV's, so why havent they taken over the world?

Reality vs. Idealology.

 

[iwire]

wow, so many more pro's than con's for EV's, so why havent they taken over the world?

You can't really be serious.

 

[Besoeker]

wow, so many more pro's than con's for EV's, so why havent they taken over the world?

Price, range, and recharge time.