The poor economy and doom and gloom?

[tonyou812]

Would you rather work for a Japanese company at half the pay and no pension plan or work for an outdated American company with full benefits?

The American auto worker had the highest standard of living of any blue collar worker in the world. Having to compete with industry in countries that don't have one tenth the government regulations is what killed the auto industry.

If the American auto industry does go bankrupt it won't be the company that get's hurt it will be all those retired workers depending on the company for their pensions. The company will just re-organize and move to other states and countries where they have less bagage. The company will end up stronger than ever but the workers will lose.

Im sorry but your just not listening to what im saying.
Sure the big three were doing just peachy in the past and they could afford to have all the bennies package for their people, but when you fail to adapt to the times and the competition you will never be able to compete with the rest of the world. GM has been choked by its own pension benifits to its retired workers. Now that they have all the baggage and this big nut to meet every month they need to sell a riduculous amount of vehicles. More vehicles than they ever were able to sell. And with the rise of the other foreign car companies they are basically not adapting to the times.
Think of this .....25-30 years ago how many different pick up trucks were out there? and now how many?
I too would like to have more faith in the products Ford puts out but I cant help to get upset when I see how well my buddys 98 tacoma held up compared to the "BOMB" of a Ford Ranger I had. And it doesnt end with my bad experiance, ive got plenty of friends that can attest to this.

Does the big three really think people are just going to buy American cause its American? NO we want a good, decent product, so why cant they do it? They didnt even have the forsight to invest in fuel efficient cars? COME on what the hell are they waithing for? Truely amazing how blind these " million dollar" CEO's are. They could have had a jump on an upcoming market but instead they thought it would be a better idea to take a good car like the Taurus and run it into the ground like every other car they put out.
Look the numbers tell it all. They simply cannot keep doing buisness they way they are. And they cant expect someone to make a 30- 40,000 dollar investment solely on patriotism. People work very hard for their money and most want to know that there cars will still work without and major problems after 3 years.

Look at how they spend their money even now while they stare down the barrel of bancrupcy they still waste money like there is no emergency. This can only lead someone to beileve that there are many more areas where they can tighten their belts. Im sure there are plenty of redundant jobs in the higher echelons of the companies too.

You can blame anyone you want, but the truth is they are failling to adapt to a everchanging market. For christ sake just look at the Chevy line up! Why do they have so many models. why not slim it down so you can have some better quality control? Why do they need to keep coming out with more suv modles? Sometimes I just wanna scream at them WAKE THE F up! your drowning and doing nothing about it. What is it gonna take? Do you really think the higher ups even care? Because in the end they will be just fine in the Multi million dollar estates and what not.
To sit there and pass blame on everything else is like your just being a sore looser. Hey maybe they need to just ask themselves some basic buisness questions like maybe paying someone 60 bucks an hour to push a broom is not good buisness sense. Did you ever stop and think maybe some of these people just make a little too much? Have we all just forgotten basic buisness rules?

 

[iwire]

I feel obligated to point out that China is a far bigger threat than Japan ever was.

China is having problems too, one it's biggest customers (Us) is not buying what they are selling at anywhere near the rate we had been.

 

[tonyou812]

For crying out loud GM sells more vehicles world wide than Toyota and they still cant stay afloat! Does that not tell you anything? Are you gonna tell me its Toyota and Hondas fault?

 

[peter d]

China is having problems too, one it's biggest customers (Us) is not buying what they are selling at anywhere near the rate we had been.

Don't forget that China also owns $1.3 trillion in US currency. They are in no strong position to devastate the US economy without doing major damage to their own economy.

 

[cschmid]

I generally agree with Marc's sentiments on this issue.

However, until this nation solves its debt problem (IF it ever solves its debt problem) we are headed for big trouble.

So our Great nation is having a financial crisis and it is due to the fact that we have to high of debt to asset ratio..So how do we propose to fix the issue....by creating more debt...I am confused now...

That they chose to use a corporate jet to go begging with a tin cup was stupid beyond measure.
They fail to understand perception, and have turned the wrath of the nation upon theirselves. They were even given a chance once they got to the floor to potentially save the day, and still failed.

The Congressman from California summed it up nicely -

He asked for a show of hand of any of the exec's if they would consider flying commercial?

No show of hands.

He asked for a show of hand of any of the exec's if they would consider a wage cut in their packages.

No show of hands.

Guess what the proper reaction is to giving them money from our representatives?

NO SHOWING OF HANDS!

Our governor flys commercial anytime she can. she sold off the corporate jet that the other governor had purchased (along with it, that she would replace him) for the state. She laid off the driver, and cook, and the family manages that, because she looks out for the public's collar.These are real moves by someone who manages a multibillion dollar budget. She is the most popular governor in the nation - Sarah Palin.

I vote they go chapter 11 and learn to get mean and lean, at $55 to about $57 dollars an hour. Going chapter seven, gives them a chance to rearrange legacy, management, and labor costs. All are going to have to see a belt tightening. They are going to have higher rates, because as an American company they are responsible for our military hardware, so it should be a "freebee" add-on, within reason. I want them to be successful. When I look at what my govornor does vs some Detroit exec's, you can see how my vote comes to be.

So you think this is all about getting low interest rate loans due to hardship in the auto industry..interesting..the auto industry wants deregulated so if they can not get deregulated they want some cash to help them survive..so the key question here is are we going to bail them out or deregulate them..one or the other is going to happen..and Nascar is in serious trouble as well what do we do for them..they are next in line..

About 20 years ago that conversation would have actually meant something but considering that Japanese automakers have had plants in the US for over 10 years, the us verses them debate does not work so well so well anymore. In a lot of instances Toyotas are Japanese in name only.

To answer your question if it were not for my current obligations, I would jump at the chance to work in Japan again. Autoworkers in Japan are well paid, have a very safe work environment with pensions, and a medical system that not only works but provides more than adequate medical care. I would argue they have a safer and healthier work environment than the we do too. They also have a mentality that a job with a big auto maker is a job for life, and have only recently done their first layoff?ever. That and they make a better product too.

If we really want to compete on a global scale with the Japanese we should be studying their play book a lot more closely. However having said that, I feel obligated to point out that China is a far bigger threat than Japan ever was.

Just remember competeing on a global scale has its down falls..just look at our economy..in a lot of countries living on 35 to 50 dollars a month is good pay...so do you still think global is good...

China is having problems too, one it's biggest customers (Us) is not buying what they are selling at anywhere near the rate we had been.

Good point Bob...

So we all can aid our economy or we can continue to be part of the problem..buying locally and doing business with your neighbors aids in our healing..buying globally from people you do not know does nothing for the economy of your local community..

Just my opinions and glad to share them...:smile:

 

[growler]

Hey maybe they need to just ask themselves some basic buisness questions like maybe paying someone 60 bucks an hour to push a broom is not good buisness sense. Did you ever stop and think maybe some of these people just make a little too much? Have we all just forgotten basic buisness rules?

I think the average pay for an auto worker is $28 dollars an hour and not $60. Where the American auto manufacturer is hurting is because they have been doing business in this country for 100 years and the foreigners have only been here less than 20 years. The foreign company hasn't went through even the first cycle of retirees. When they do then they will have the same problem. Toyota has already decided not to build any more plants here. Many of their products are already sitting on the docks because dealer are not calling for shipments ( they are not in good shape either ).

It's much easier to go in with no baggage and make a profit but what about the long run. Even in Japan they have a problem once their work force starts to age and the retirment benefits kick in. The Japanese auto worker pays much more out of pocket than the American auto worker for health care when retired.

Also the amount of taxes paid by the American auto industry is much higher than the competition. The playing field isn't very level at all.

Washington has done much more to kill Detroit than the Japanese ever could. Even after killing the golden goose they have the nerve to complain the meat is a little dry.

 

[khixxx]

Im sorry but your just not listening to what im saying.

Your going to make a terrible politician?

http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2008/02/chryslers-project-genesis.html

Chrysler's "Project Genesis"
Chrysler's latest corrective action, called "Project Genesis" is in a nutshell, a plan to cut even more models and to consolidate even more dealers.

The details have yet to emerge, but it's safe to say that badge-engineered vehicles, slow sellers, and vehicles that don't fit the brand image are at risk of being dropped. The word is they want to cut the products offered in half, from 30 models to 15 models, and each with a clearly defined market slot and with no model overlaps.

Also, they want more (if not all) dealers to be selling all three Chrysler LLC brands, that being Dodge, Jeep and Chrysler... So it looks like the corporate bullet they're biting is coming from a howitzer, and not a pistol.

 

[tonyou812]

I think the average pay for an auto worker is $28 dollars an hour and not $60. Where the American auto manufacturer is hurting is because they have been doing business in this country for 100 years and the foreigners have only been here less than 20 years. The foreign company hasn't went through even the first cycle of retirees. When they do then they will have the same problem. Toyota has already decided not to build any more plants here. Many of their products are already sitting on the docks because dealer are not calling for shipments ( they are not in good shape either ).

It's much easier to go in with no baggage and make a profit but what about the long run. Even in Japan they have a problem once their work force starts to age and the retirment benefits kick in. The Japanese auto worker pays much more out of pocket than the American auto worker for health care when retired.

Also the amount of taxes paid by the American auto industry is much higher than the competition. The playing field isn't very level at all.

Washington has done much more to kill Detroit than the Japanese ever could. Even after killing the golden goose they have the nerve to complain the meat is a little dry.

So GM didnt see this coming? Did you ever think thats what Toyota is doing? Its really sad that these multi million dollar CEOS get paid to sit on their butts and do nothing. They rode the SUV craze all the way to the end of the cliff without any life line. I cant even think ofhand what hybird the big three have out. When I think hybird I automatically thing Civic and Prius. They cant seem to make these fast enough but Chevys answer was "Flexi fuel"..........amazing.

 

[tonyou812]

Your going to make a terrible politician?

http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2008/02/chryslers-project-genesis.html

Chrysler's "Project Genesis"
Chrysler's latest corrective action, called "Project Genesis" is in a nutshell, a plan to cut even more models and to consolidate even more dealers.

The details have yet to emerge, but it's safe to say that badge-engineered vehicles, slow sellers, and vehicles that don't fit the brand image are at risk of being dropped. The word is they want to cut the products offered in half, from 30 models to 15 models, and each with a clearly defined market slot and with no model overlaps.

Also, they want more (if not all) dealers to be selling all three Chrysler LLC brands, that being Dodge, Jeep and Chrysler... So it looks like the corporate bullet they're biting is coming from a howitzer, and not a pistol.

I'm just shooting from the hip here. And going on common business sense. How dare you call me a politician!:wink: And I really want to see them do well. Im sick of seeing them behind the curve all the time. Why did they ever think 30 models was a good thing anyway?

 

[celtic]

To sit there and pass blame on everything else is like your just being a sore looser. Hey maybe they need to just ask themselves some basic buisness questions like maybe paying someone 60 bucks an hour to push a broom is not good buisness sense. Did you ever stop and think maybe some of these people just make a little too much? Have we all just forgotten basic buisness rules?

I doubt many in the UAW get $60/hr....I seriously anyone pushing a broom is making $60/hr.

Where did you get this figure from?


Even IF these guys were getting $60/hr, they do not control the company. The company is controlled by guys why fly to DC in private jets with their hands out ~ these are the folks who have no grasp on reality.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Our city will probaly experiance a $3M short fall this year. That's a lot of money to a city.

As for hiring someone, I agree with a couple of the comments made. Make sure that you really have enough work to support two people for any length of time. I got hired by a couple of guys that "needed" more people and I was only at one for two weeks before he was caught up. Ends up he didn't really need more people, he just needed more qualified people, but of course they had been with him awhile so he kept them and let me go.

My point is that it's really not fair to bring a guy on, with him thinking that he's got a new home, if you really only need someone for six months or a year.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I doubt many in the UAW get $60/hr....I seriously anyone pushing a broom is making $60/hr.

Where did you get this figure from?


Even IF these guys were getting $60/hr, they do not control the company. The company is controlled by guys why fly to DC in private jets with their hands out ~ these are the folks who have no grasp on reality.

They may not make that kind of money, but 20 plus years ago I was talking to a guy who worked for one of the big 3 and he told me he made $25 an hour to put hubcaps on cars, I asked, you make $25 an hour to put on four hubcaps?, he said no, to put on 2 hubcaps, theres a guy on the other side of the line that puts on the other two.:smile:

 

[petersonra]

A friend of mine hires a guy for a one day trial first.

The place I used to work had some kind of deal with the pipefitters union. They mostly had to take whoever the hall sent them, but if they were unsuitable, they only had to keep them till Friday, and could get a replacement on Monday.

I'd guess about half the guys from the hall left on Friday. Most of the rest stayed on, some for many years.

 

[celtic]

They may not make that kind of money, but 20 plus years ago I was talking to a guy who worked for one of the big 3 and he told me he made $25 an hour to put hubcaps on cars, I asked, you make $25 an hour to put on four hubcaps?, he said no, to put on 2 hubcaps, theres a guy on the other side of the line that puts on the other two.:smile:

Even so, these guys are not controlling the company.....it's the insane corporate paychecks, bonus, stock options and various "perks" that make the company top heavy.

How much of this sort of "overhead" goes into the price of a car?
All of it.

 

[growler]

Even so, these guys are not controlling the company.....it's the insane corporate paychecks, bonus, stock options and various "perks" that make the company top heavy.

How much of this sort of "overhead" goes into the price of a car?
All of it.

I agree that there are a lot of people at the top getting lots of money but the real cost of cars is not labor or even management.

Every year a new product needs to be developed ( the consumer demands it). First you have all the engineering and design cost, developement including passing all government safety test, then you have the cost to re-tool the plant to make a new model, then the promotional cost ( advertising). ( almost fogot all the politicians that need bribes ).

The assembly process is the easy part, not that many man hours in each vehicle.

The poor sucker putting on hub caps may be paid well but he has to put on lots of hub caps so the cost is minimal.

Again I agree that the guys at the top get to much but that all corporate executives not just the auto industry.

 

[tonyou812]

I doubt many in the UAW get $60/hr....I seriously anyone pushing a broom is making $60/hr.

Where did you get this figure from?


Even IF these guys were getting $60/hr, they do not control the company. The company is controlled by guys why fly to DC in private jets with their hands out ~ these are the folks who have no grasp on reality.

There was something about it a few years ago on the news. I remember my wife commenting on someone thats been there years making around 60 and at the time they were pushing a broom. Sorry i cant find that story but I was just trying to use some hyperbol for effect.

 

[BryanMD]

I doubt many in the UAW get $60/hr....I seriously anyone pushing a broom is making $60/hr.

Where did you get this figure from?

I can't immediately cite my source either but the numbers I've read recently were that the big three had a **labor burden** that comes out to almost $80 per hour and the import makers have a **labor burden** that is about $50.

The actual wages paid to those presently clocking in each day are of course quite a bit less than the **labor burden** is for the big three or toyota or any of the EC's here.

 

[tonyou812]

Even so, these guys are not controlling the company.....it's the insane corporate paychecks, bonus, stock options and various "perks" that make the company top heavy.

How much of this sort of "overhead" goes into the price of a car?
All of it.

well i think 1500 bucks for every car sold goes to their health care plan.

 

[tonyou812]

so the next thing someone is going to say is "well thats because the Japanese companys dont put as much into their health care cost" and I agree but on the average most Japanese folk are in much better shape than Americans.

 

[tonyou812]

I agree that there are a lot of people at the top getting lots of money but the real cost of cars is not labor or even management.

Every year a new product needs to be developed ( the consumer demands it). First you have all the engineering and design cost, developement including passing all government safety test, then you have the cost to re-tool the plant to make a new model, then the promotional cost ( advertising). ( almost fogot all the politicians that need bribes ).

The assembly process is the easy part, not that many man hours in each vehicle.

The poor sucker putting on hub caps may be paid well but he has to put on lots of hub caps so the cost is minimal.

Again I agree that the guys at the top get to much but that all corporate executives not just the auto industry.

The Japanese have us beat there to. It takes the average US plant 35 hours to finish a car where as a Japanese plant takes around 27 hours. Quite considerable differance.
The whole country was stuck in this 1950's mentality that everything is going to be A O K. Bigger is better and more is even better. And now its time to pay up. I
I really hope they can turn this around for the long haul, but for that to happen there really needs to be some kind of Epiphany or divine intervention in the upper management of all of our major corprations. I think one of the few conpanies that acually posted a profit last quarter was the pet companies. NO matter what happens we will always have room for our pets.