Torque or else !

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When did all the fuss about torquing screws start? It used to be you 'knew' how tight to tighten a screw so it wouldn't unscrew by itself. And I've even learned the 'feel' when tightening things attaching pieces of plastic together so things don't break.

Has there been an increase in things coming apart and causing problems?

I'm reminded at this point of the scene in Mel Brooks' History of the World, Part I, where Torquemada is being introduced...

I suppose you can't torque your homeowner out of his request.
 
PaulMmn said:
When did all the fuss about torquing screws start?
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It has been an NEC requirement for at least several decades.

As was mentioned previously,how do you legally defend ignoring portions of the NEC just because you know better?
 
jim dungar said:
It has been an NEC requirement for at least several decades.

As was mentioned previously,how do you legally defend ignoring portions of the NEC just because you know better?
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I think what everybody is saying is that it's something that is impossible to enforce and of dubious value with wiring devices. Why is this being made a big deal now if the requirement is several decades old?

growler said:
He also mentioned that an inspector or homeowner may wish to get a letter from an EC stating that all connections had been properly torqued.
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For what purpose? Gonna make him swear under oath? I think boilerplate on the back of the contract that reads: "All work will be done in accordance with all applicable local and state codes" would suffice.

-Hal
 
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hbiss said:
For what purpose? Gonna make him swear under oath? I think boilerplate on the back of the contract that reads: "All work will be done in accordance with all applicable local and state codes" would suffice.

-Hal
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The guy on the video was from the "Electrical Code Academy", I think they teach code classes.

He was making the point that if you need a good cheap torque screwdriver then Husky makes a reasonably priced version that comes with a certificate of calibration.

The point that I was getting at is that the homeowner probably didn't get the idea of demanding a letter of compliance from this forum or any other professional electrical forum. I think that idea is just floating around out there in you-tube land.
 
gadfly56 said:
Small claims court. In NJ, you can go up to $5,000 IIRC.
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I know from unfortunate experience that there's getting a judgement and then there's getting it paid. At least around here there is no enforcement attached to a small claims court judgement.
 
growler said:
The point that I was getting at is that the homeowner probably didn't get the idea of demanding a letter of compliance from this forum or any other professional electrical forum. I think that idea is just floating around out there in you-tube land.
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Maybe. But that verbiage comes from some architectural or engineering spec. I tried Googling it with no luck.

But whatever. Point is this thread just reinforces for me the fact that I don't like the general public reading what we talk about here among ourselves. If he did get that idea and verbiage from the internet, I just want to gearantee that he didn't get it here.

-Hal
 
jim dungar said:
It has been an NEC requirement for at least several decades.

As was mentioned previously,how do you legally defend ignoring portions of the NEC just because you know better?
Click to expand...
Do we know that it was ignored?
 
hbiss said:
If anyone in this industry doesn't know who Mike is or what this forum is about they don't belong here. It costs nothing to sign up if they want to see for themselves.

-Hal
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People who are new to this industry may not yet know who Mike is, they are welcome here though.

IIRC when I first found this site was a hit on a Google search on a topic I was trying to learn more information about. Happened to be a hit that was a direct link to a post with the keywords I was searching for. I did know who Mike was but had no idea this forum existed.
 
jim dungar said:
It has been an NEC requirement for at least several decades.

As was mentioned previously,how do you legally defend ignoring portions of the NEC just because you know better?
Click to expand...
2017 it went from an informational note to something mentioned in actual code content though. Only actual code content before then that I am aware of would be indirect requirements via 110.3(B).
 
kwired said:
2017 it went from an informational note to something mentioned in actual code content though. Only actual code content before then that I am aware of would be indirect requirements via 110.3(B).
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In 2017 specific language was added to the code, partly because many installers were pretty much ignoring 110.3(B). The old fine print, or informational, note even reminded installers that equipment was marked with torque values. UL486A and B have required manufacturers to put torque value in their instructions for decades.
 
ggunn said:
I know from unfortunate experience that there's getting a judgement and then there's getting it paid. At least around here there is no enforcement attached to a small claims court judgement.
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You have to jump through some hoops in NJ, but IIRC it starts with the judgement, and if you can't get the other party to pony up, you go back to court and get an order which the sheriff then executes. Basically, he goes to the premises and confiscates stuff that looks like it might satisfy the judgement when sold at auction. All these costs are also recoverable by you.
 
jim dungar said:
In 2017 specific language was added to the code, partly because many installers were pretty much ignoring 110.3(B). The old fine print, or informational, note even reminded installers that equipment was marked with torque values. UL486A and B have required manufacturers to put torque value in their instructions for decades.
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Correct, and I think they decided such instructions weren't being followed all that much and decided to put in language that more directly requires attention to torquing connections. Is difficult to actually enforce said rules unless the enforcer actually witnesses the torquing though.

Is also not the first time NEC has taken listing requirements and made them into more direct code requirements.
 
kwired said:
...instructions weren't being followed all that much and decided to put in language ...
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Ye, installers are not following the rules, so lets make the NEC larger by adding more words that effectively say the same thing.
 
See 110.14

That’s not an uncommon spec in commercial work. However, your customer should have included this in their drawings or contract.

Usually an affidavit is included with the drawings provided for bidding, and you sign it upon completion of the job.

If a couple years down the road something is damaged, and a forensic engineer determines it was due to improper torque, that affidavit would be used to hold you liable for malfeasance.


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You can show the customer the tools used. 95% you don't have the tools. I had work done in my new apartment and watched the electrician do the work and the work was terrible. This was in Florida. The reason I did not do the work, I am not licensed in Florida.
 
jjefferson said:
How many supply houses stock torque wrenches for electrical work?
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We're talking torque screwdrivers, and Home Depot, for one, carries them. According to the on line stock report, there are two in the HD nearest me.

See here. And waddaya know, it's the Husky that the guy was probably talking about. $60, 8-40 inch-pounds.
 
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