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jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Central NC
I've started a new habit I should have been doing all along. On a recent service change, a feeder in the new panel kept moving into needed space. I formed it in, landed and snugged it. If flexed and moved shortly afterward.

I couldn't have this, as I had to put in several AFI breakers & needed open space. I strapped the feeder to the panel back with MC straps & tek screws. Worked like a charm. I did it with all the feeders. I will do this from now on with panels. Feeders will never shift & block anything. I've used tie wraps before with screwed in sticky backs, but straps & teks do a lot better.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Are you saying that you strapped the individual conductors to the enclosure with metal straps?
 

ASK_EDDIE

Member
Location
TEXAS
Ive taken and screwed a one hole strap to the back of the panel and then used it
to have something for a tiewrap to anchor to and the hold the wire back.
 

GUNNING

Senior Member
Kludge.

Kludge.

I sell sub panels... had a 30 spc panel with 150 amp main and 4/0 copper feeders.
all the spaces were full except the ones the customer wanted for his new circuits. He was shaking mad at me for selling him the sub panel till he saw there wasn't any more room in the old one.
In computer history it was called a Kludge. A bag of wires attached to a modified breadboard to improve the product. Preplanning in 1979 isn't going to make installing AFCI's in a Square D panel any easier.
The 4/0's were from the last craze of generator install.

I still like fuses. If it gets too hot it melts and opens.

Simple in design and execution.
 
I sell sub panels... had a 30 spc panel with 150 amp main and 4/0 copper feeders.
all the spaces were full except the ones the customer wanted for his new circuits. He was shaking mad at me for selling him the sub panel till he saw there wasn't any more room in the old one.
In computer history it was called a Kludge. A bag of wires attached to a modified breadboard to improve the product. Preplanning in 1979 isn't going to make installing AFCI's in a Square D panel any easier.
The 4/0's were from the last craze of generator install.

I still like fuses. If it gets too hot it melts and opens.

Simple in design and execution.
Not so simple when you want to add circuits, though. I have seen few fuse panels that had provisions for unused spaces to be covered and later equipped with fuses for the sake of adding circuits.

Also, just think how much fun it would be to have a blown fuse in a 30 space panel and to have to try to locate it in the dark.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Central NC
Yes, I strapped feeders in with metal straps. I would have used plastic if I'd had them. But what is the risk? A smooth finish metal strap is no more risk than the conductor laying against the metal enclosure. No different than driving a metal staple or strap to hold SEU cable, except the double insulation. The staples could damaged insulation more easily than the straps.

I strapped the feeders to give best possible clearance to bus bars. I had several AFI breakers to put in & needed all the space I could get.
 

220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Occaisionally the wires just don't want to cooperate and you need to restrain them.

I used a piece of the sheath, a fender washer and self tapping screw to retain this beast(s). (sub panel and boiler feeds)

 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Occaisionally the wires just don't want to cooperate and you need to restrain them.

I used a piece of the sheath, a fender washer and self tapping screw to retain this beast(s). (sub panel and boiler feeds)

The above is a great example of how not to do electrical work.


312.5 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures.
Conductors entering enclosures within the scope of
this article shall be protected from abrasion and shall comply
with 312.5(A) through (C).

(C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured
to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.
 
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220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
Don't you get tired of saying the same stupid stuff every.single.day.?


In your area, you staple unprotected, unfused SE cable to the side of wooden houses. It's dangerous but NEC allows it.

In my area we bring cables into the panel through a single KO/bushing. It's completely safe and secure but NEC doesn't allow it.

It seems like after all these years you would accept that fact.

Take a close look at the green sticker on the finished panel. Green = good

Solar discos, meter, combiner on the right. I assume those are wrong too :)

 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Don't you get tired of saying the same stupid stuff every.single.day.?
Don't you get tired of being an unprofessional?

In your area, you staple unprotected, unfused SE cable to the side of wooden houses. It's dangerous but NEC allows it.
It is allowed by the NEC and has proven itself not to be dangerous, you keep talking about things you do not seem to know about.

In my area we bring cables into the panel through a single KO/bushing. It's completely safe and secure but NEC doesn't allow it.
Right, which unless your area has changed the NEC is a violation regarless of the green sticker. So in your area do what you want to do but don't come onto this forum and say it is the right way to do things because it is not.

It seems like after all these years you would accept that fact.
And it seems if you really did not want to get slammed for this poor workmanship you would stop posting pictures of it.

I could install panels much faster here if I just stuffed all the cables in one hole ..... of course that would be hack and would not pass inspection.

Take a close look at the green sticker on the finished panel. Green = good
That green sticker is worth nothing apparently.

Solar discos, meter, combiner on the right. I assume those are wrong too :)
No idea, can't see if you used connectors.
 

jmellc

Senior Member
Location
Central NC
Occaisionally the wires just don't want to cooperate and you need to restrain them.

I used a piece of the sheath, a fender washer and self tapping screw to retain this beast(s). (sub panel and boiler feeds
Is that the position your panel & boiler feeds will stay in after connection? Any breaker on the bottom right spaces would be a tight fit, but a GFCI or AFCI would not fit at all.
 
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220/221

Senior Member
Location
AZ
.......
Right, which unless your area has changed the NEC is a violation regarless of the green sticker
Pay attention. This is really very simple. I learned this via the internet over the past several years.

The NEC is a guidline, not the absolute authority.

Many areas use the NEC as their complete authority and adopt the new code cycles completely and quickly.

Many areas modify it to suit their wishes. They adopt new changes when they see fit and they pick and choose which ammendments are appropriate.


Read that last part again.^ Unless you understand it, there is no point in continuing.


Examples:


My area has disallowed the hack method of using unfused, exposed SE as service conductors since the 50's. My area has also added the requirement of EGC's everywhere, some time in the 80's. My area also allows cables to be installed as pictured. They have since the 60's. Those are three significant differences.

Your area stiil allows the 3rd world installation of SE service conductors. You hack these installation in and proclaim them prefessional because the NEC allows it. In my eyes, that is about as sloppy and unprofessional as you can get. You might as well string an extension cord from the pole into the house.

My area still doesn't require arc faults "everywhere", tamper resistant anywhere or common trip on MWBC. In your eyes, that makes me, and every other contractor here, unprofessional. That's just dumb.

It's legal and it's common practice so anything I have to say about it will be directed at the code, not the installer. When you post a pic of your service, it's not likely that I will insult you personally but I will voice my opinion on the method.


You can think of the NEC as the Bible if you like, just remember that there are many different religions and interpetations of the bible and learn to accept that, even though their religion is slightly different from yours, your neighbors still believe in quality work and safe installations.


And it seems if you really did not want to get slammed for this poor workmanship you would stop posting pictures of it.
I don't mind getting "slammed". I enjoy a good debate. In this case it's you that ends up looking foolish.


No idea, can't see if you used connectors.
It's conduit. We are not allowed to use NM for the solar installations.


Is that the position your panel & boiler feeds will stay in after connection? Any breaker on the bottom right spaces would be a tight fit, but a GFCI or AFCI would not fit at all.
Yeah, that's the final position. It looks clear to me. It may be a bit close to the bottom breaker space but it's not a concern. All the circuits in this 40 space panel are already installed.

The sub, inside has most of the branch circuits.

 
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Strife

Senior Member
If you're talking about driving a self tapper into the back with a strap and use the strap to get the ty wrap around it: sure, I've done it many times.
But if you're talking about putting a strap over the wire... I think you're not code compliant.
Somewhere.


I've started a new habit I should have been doing all along. On a recent service change, a feeder in the new panel kept moving into needed space. I formed it in, landed and snugged it. If flexed and moved shortly afterward.

I couldn't have this, as I had to put in several AFI breakers & needed open space. I strapped the feeder to the panel back with MC straps & tek screws. Worked like a charm. I did it with all the feeders. I will do this from now on with panels. Feeders will never shift & block anything. I've used tie wraps before with screwed in sticky backs, but straps & teks do a lot better.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
.......

Pay attention. This is really very simple. I learned this via the internet over the past several years.

The NEC is a guidline, not the absolute authority.
It is the authority as adopted, if an AHJ wishes to change it they can make written amendments.

Many areas modify it to suit their wishes. They adopt new changes when they see fit and they pick and choose which ammendments are appropriate.
Yes they do, my area has about 65 written amendments to the NEC. RI has a few and CT has it's own batch.

Has your area amended the NEC to reflect the work you are trying to defend?


Read that last part again.^ Unless you understand it, there is no point in continuing.

I understand it fine, it seems you have a problem understanding the difference between an inspector overlooking a NEC violation and a written amendment.

Examples:


My area has disallowed the hack method of using unfused, exposed SE as service conductors since the 50's. My area has also added the requirement of EGC's everywhere, some time in the 80's. My area also allows cables to be installed as pictured. They have since the 60's. Those are three significant differences.
That is all fine and dandy if they have written those changes into the code. If not none of those things are 'the rules'.


Your area stiil allows the 3rd world installation of SE service conductors. You hack these installation in and proclaim them prefessional because the NEC allows it.
Regardless, my way meets the NEC as it has adopted here where I work.

Is there an amendment in your area allowing the entry of cables without connectors?



My area still doesn't require arc faults "everywhere", tamper resistant anywhere or common trip on MWBC. In your eyes, that makes me, and every other contractor here, unprofessional. That's just dumb.
No, that does not make any tradesman unprofessional assuming the code in your area does not require those items.

Many areas have removed the AFCI requirements.


You can think of the NEC as the Bible if you like, just remember that there are many different religions and interpetations of the bible and learn to accept that, even though their religion is slightly different from yours, your neighbors still believe in quality work and safe installations.

You sure are making a lot of excuses for being to lazy to use connectors. :grin:


I don't mind getting "slammed". I enjoy a good debate. In this case it's you that ends up looking foolish.
No, unless you can post the amendment in your area that allows you to just stuff the NMs in a big hole you come across as a guy who makes his own rules up.


It's conduit. We are not allowed to use NM for the solar installations.
I don't think we can either.
 

mivey

Senior Member
It is the authority as adopted, if an AHJ wishes to change it they can make written amendments.
I agree with that and the related comments.
No, unless you can post the amendment in your area that allows you to just stuff the NMs in a big hole you come across as a guy who makes his own rules up.
That I disagree with. It is the AHJ that is making this stuff up. It is SOP in many areas, the AHJs allow it so it is done. It was a long standing practice in our area as well and still gets passed by the AHJs in many places.

I understand your point about following code even if the AHJs don't enforce it but it is unfair to say one person is making his own rules. If it is commonly accepted and approved practice it is more than a lone wolf as it becomes a locally accepted standard whether we like it or not and whether or not there is an official document stating it is OK (other than a pile of green tags).

That said, I follow the code. As a fair warning to those who do not: I wired a building to code and refused to take some shortcuts allowed by a local inspector. A similar building a few miles away took the shortcuts. The inspectors changed before their building was completed and they had to re-do the lion's share of the wiring and had no official paperwork to help them get out of it.
 
I agree with that and the related comments.
That I disagree with. It is the AHJ that is making this stuff up. It is SOP in many areas, the AHJs allow it so it is done. It was a long standing practice in our area as well and still gets passed by the AHJs in many places.

I understand your point about following code even if the AHJs don't enforce it but it is unfair to say one person is making his own rules. If it is commonly accepted and approved practice it is more than a lone wolf as it becomes a locally accepted standard whether we like it or not and whether or not there is an official document stating it is OK (other than a pile of green tags).

That said, I follow the code. As a fair warning to those who do not: I wired a building to code and refused to take some shortcuts allowed by a local inspector. A similar building a few miles away took the shortcuts. The inspectors changed before their building was completed and they had to re-do the lion's share of the wiring and had no official paperwork to help them get out of it.
Wow. That must have been an unpopular inspector. (Are there any popular ones.....:)) But the safe thing is to just follow the code. There are similar issues around here using T310.15(B) when it isn't really applicable.
 
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