under-cabinet lights

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electricmanscott

Senior Member
Location
Boston, MA
Re: under-cabinet lights

True. BUT, I have no doubt that this group can find some way to twist this around so bad that there would be no answer that we could all agree on. :D Three replies, going for 300!
 

luke warmwater

Senior Member
Re: under-cabinet lights

True.

On the same lines as :

You can plug a vaccum into a dining room receptacle but can you hard-wire a 120v. vac port off of the dining room circut?
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: under-cabinet lights

True. BUT, I have no doubt that this group can find some way to twist this around so bad that there would be no answer that we could all agree on.
Scott, after I stop laughing I might consider that a challenge. :D :D
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: under-cabinet lights

At first read and before my first cup of coffee I think I will say false. After a little though I may change my mind but as it stands now I think I will stay with false.

Is this light permanently installed under this cabinet? Then we might have a problem and based on this I stand with false.

Can I install the sink light or the hood fan light and cord and plug them?
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: under-cabinet lights

Had coffee, took shower, shaved and dressed for work.

Now to get serious about the under cabinet light that is permanently installed.

210.52 (B) Small Appliances. (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

Don?t see any allowances for under cabinet lighting. If this light was not installed then there would be no problem but the fact that it is installed under the cabinet then the problem.

As outlined in the original post would be in violation of 210.52 (B) (2)
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
Re: under-cabinet lights

Electrofelon wrote:
...but the same light can not be hardwired to the small appliance circuit?
JW, slow down. The answer is "true." :D

By all rights, there are no other outlets in this kitchen, JW. (Edit: With the cord-connected light! :D

[ April 28, 2005, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: under-cabinet lights

What I am saying is that if I can?t hard wire it to the small appliance circuit then I can?t permanently install it and then use a cord and plug and call it portable. If it is installed to the under side of the cabinet then its use is intended for task lighting and can not be used on the small appliance branch circuit per 210.52 (b) (2)
 

milwaukeesteve

Senior Member
Location
Milwaukee, WI
Re: under-cabinet lights

In my effort to see 300...
I think I agree with JW, that if it is a permanently attach piece of equipment, be it a light or a can opener or whatever, now it has to be wired appropriately. The canopener is an appliance. The U/C light is not.
As far as portability, there is nothing that says we can't plug an air freshener, a vacuum, a curling iron, a plug in search light or anything else into those outlets, but as soon as it becomes permanent, it has to be an appliance.

Only 280some to go...
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Re: under-cabinet lights

OK Guys and Gals: Here is the final word: ?True.? Here is why: 400.7(A)(8) and 400.8(B) (NEC 2002). Here?s the proof:
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The under-counter light is an appliance.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is designed to be fastened in place in such a way as to permit ready removal for maintenance or repair.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is intended for flexible cord connection.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Therefore, per 400.7(A), it is permitted to be used with a flexible cord, even if it its screwed into the bottom of the counter.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Therefore, per 400.7(B), it is required to be energized from a receptacle outlet.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nothing in the code puts any restriction on what may or may not be plugged into a receptacle outlet that is on the ?Small Appliance Circuit.? Besides, as I said above, the under-counter light is a ?small appliance.?</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">QED :D
 

dana1028

Senior Member
Re: under-cabinet lights

Charlie - talk about a s....t....r....e....t...c...h!!! I see nothing in 400.7 or 400.8 that indicates that an object becomes an appliance by installing a flexible cord. 400.7 lists items that can have flexible cords, nowhere does it say that item now becomes an appliance by doing so.

I think I'm going to agree with jw on this one; once you fasten the luminaire to the cabinet it becomes permenant and not allowed on the sm. appl. br. ckt.
 

dana1028

Senior Member
Re: under-cabinet lights

As a 'by-the-way'... in Calif. those under cab lights will probably be going by the way-side come Oct. 1 when the new state Energy Code (2005) becomes effective.

Folks have been using those small fluor. fixtures under the cabs to meet the fluor. general lighting requirements (Energy Code) for years, in Oct. 1 that loop hole goes away and designers/electricians will have to supply the kitchen with flour. lighting for 50% of all wattage used for lighting in the kitchen.
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: under-cabinet lights

Thanks for the heads up. I can't find the stupid energy code here anymore.


50% of the lighting in watts? That's bull! The people who write this stuff need phsyciatric elvauation. And pay cuts too, I'm sure.

So we're going to be on 2005 in October?
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Re: under-cabinet lights

Originally posted by dana1028:I see nothing in 400.7 or 400.8 that indicates that an object becomes an appliance by installing a flexible cord.
I did not say that any NEC article caused the light to become designated as an "appliance." Nor did I say that it is the presence of a cord that causes the light to become designated as an "appliance." What I said is that the light is an "appliance."

From the realm of logical reasoning, this is called "begging the question." OK, so ya caught me. Ya gonna turn me over to the Logic Sheriff? :D
 

physis

Senior Member
Re: under-cabinet lights

car-smiley-011.gif
costumed-smiley-019.gif
Charles B., we know you've made a logical faux pas, all we're asking for is a full confession and, I promise, the forum will go easy on you.
 
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