The problem with troubleshooting CATV is all of the extra services that are now provided. You are not just dealing with tv's now, but internet and phone as well. I can tell you first hand, hooking up one cable to the wrong leg of an unbalanced 3 way splitter can screw up alot of things. I have no problem with electricians pulling cable, but unless you want to spend 10 grand for a meter plus the money for training classes, it really is better to leave that to the people that do it for a living.
Unhappy cable customer
- Thread starter gregsparky1
- Start date
- Status
chris kennedy
Senior Member
- Location
- Miami Fla.
- Occupation
- 60 yr old tool twisting electrician
brantmacga said:
iwire said:
I'm still logged on.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
brantmacga said:
I resemble that remark!
I nominate Marc as the king of the island.
- Location
- Massachusetts
chris kennedy said:
Yeah but I did not think you would figure out we where talking about you.
<JK>
JohnJ0906
Senior Member
- Location
- Baltimore, MD
peter d said:I resemble that remark!
I nominate Marc as the king of the island.
Second.
Who will be the jester?
brantmacga
Señor Member
- Location
- Georgia
- Occupation
- Former Child
JohnJ0906 said:Second.
Who will be the jester?
well cadpoint, of course!
cadpoint
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
It takes lots and lots of practice ...
:roll:
And Frankly I'm Honored
:roll:
And Frankly I'm Honored
Last edited:
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Need a stooge? :grin:
Well I admit it, I too have lurked here for a while. This is a great forum with a wealth of knowledge to offer. I am finally getting around to posting on this topic because a few of the points that have been discussed concern me.
I will shoot straight with everyone here and readily admit the fact that I am a LV contractor. While I mostly maintain the internal systems such as telephone systems, voicemail systems, paging systems, and the like, a sizeable portion of my work comes from the infrastructure cabling. That being said, I know I run the risk of being accused of being biased. Anyone that knows me personally can attest to the fact that nothing is further from the truth. I personally work with (2) different EC outfits locally on various projects on a regular basis and you couldn't ask for better group of guys. They respect my work and my trade, and I respect theirs. Now that the introduction is out of the way, I have a few points I would like to address. I do not intend on offending anyone, but if it does occur, I apologize in advance.
I have a few comments about the above quote. The first is about electricians running phone and data cable. True, it happens all of the time. I have seen some large EC outfits that have invested in their companies and hired professional LV techs that have been properly trained to do the job right. Then you have the other EC's that assume that all Cat5 is blue, and assume since it's a wire, they can run it. There are many rules to running data cable such as Cat5, 5e, 6, and 6e. If you are an EC that does not know the right questions to ask, you could cost yourself, and your customer a lot of money. I have had many a new cabling installation ripped out because of sub-standard work by EC's. Yes, brand new.
One instance in particular happened while I was employed with a small company a few years ago. In this case, the customer paid an EC for a data network. This EC had worked for years for this particular client and had a very cozy relationship. When the customer decided to build a new state of the art building the EC, who already had the inside track with the customer, easily convinced them to let them provide the voice and data cabling. He claimed he could do it all, cheaper and better. He was mistaken. I was sent to the site to do an inspection (2) days prior to the move/ equipment installation date. Upon my arrival I noticed within minutes, that what I had expected to see was not there. I had (38) locations for voice and data spec'd on the same blueprints the EC had. In the data room I only had (17) Cat 5 (not 5e) cables. 17 does not equal 38. Out of the (38) voice locations, I only had (14) cables. 14 does not equal 38. The data cables were not terminated to a patch panel. Instead were (3) single gang surface mount boxes attached to a backboard with sticky tape, Cat 5e (not Cat 5 to match the cable type) jack inserts, and 6 port faceplates. The voice cables were punched (one pair each (orange instead of blue), instead of all four) to a 25 pair 66 block instead of the standard 50 pair 66 block.
Then I looked in the ceiling. The main bundle of the cables were draped directly across at least (4) light ballast?s. The obvious kinks in the cable were too numerous to count. Instead of cutting the excess cable off, they elected to toss the extra 20'-30' into the ceiling in a big rats nest. When the cable was pulled out and removed, it was inspected and found to have hundreds of cuts in the cable jacket due to being pulled into the corners of the ceiling grid during the installation. Needless to say, I spent an hour with the customer that day pointing out all of the things I have just mentioned above. You may wonder how this ends.
The customer demands an explanation from the EC, and soon thereafter, a refund or some form of compensation. The EC offers to repair and/or replace the cable, if someone can come and show them how to do what needs to be done. That was a no-go with my boss. He basically told the EC to figure it out himself. So the customer is now less than 48 hours from the move date, and they have no cabling infrastructure. The EC stands firm that we can make his (17) Cat 5 cables run (34) PC's, plus the (4) associated network printers, if they would just go out and buy a few hubs? The customer has had it by this point and asks us if we can do the job correctly in the time frame we had. My boss pulled in a couple of extra men and we were able to get the job completed on the day of the move. We worked late and were able to finish everything down to the last paging horn. Everything worked and the customer was happy.
What happened to the EC? He lost a longtime customer and $17K. After going back and forth with the guy for 6 months or better, the customer finally decided to file suit. The judge gave the customer back the original $5K spent with the EC, and the $7K they paid us, the rest they paid in lawyers and court cost. The EC has never touched another LV project to my knowledge since.
The second point I want to make is about 'customer happiness'. Keeping happy customers is an extremely important part of the job for any company. We all have had unhappy customers at some point, and it's never a good thing. We saw from the example above what can happen when you make the wrong customer unhappy. Everyone involved in the above scenario I am certain learned a valuable lesson. The EC learned not to sign on for a job that he (obviously) had no business doing. The customer learned to consult experts in their respective industries. I think that I learned the most valuable lesson of all. I learned to stick with what I know. I get asked a lot for 110V outlet installs on the job. Could I do it? Sure I could. After all, a monkey can pull wire. I always politely decline and pass on the name of the EC's I work with locally. Likewise, when they are asked to install LV, they pass it to me. We work together instead of against one another, and we both make money off of each other. The best thing about it is the customer gets the right person for the right job. The work is done by professionals who know the job from A-Z, not by wire monkey's that just know bits and pieces of how to do a proper installation.
And last, iwire, if what you say is true about doing whatever the customer wants you to do, if I hire you to come out and wire up a building, can you also do an oil change on my vehicle and check the leaky faucet in the John?:grin:
To conclude I will say I hope I haven't made any enemies here. I expect to take some criticism, and possibly be ridiculed by the senior member's and the Moderator's for my views and opinions. I know the first thing that's going to be tossed out is that there are bad telecom contractors just like there are EC's. I couldn't agree more. I am just as vocal about those as I am about bad EC's, only on a different forum. I try not to leave anybody out.: grin:
I will shoot straight with everyone here and readily admit the fact that I am a LV contractor. While I mostly maintain the internal systems such as telephone systems, voicemail systems, paging systems, and the like, a sizeable portion of my work comes from the infrastructure cabling. That being said, I know I run the risk of being accused of being biased. Anyone that knows me personally can attest to the fact that nothing is further from the truth. I personally work with (2) different EC outfits locally on various projects on a regular basis and you couldn't ask for better group of guys. They respect my work and my trade, and I respect theirs. Now that the introduction is out of the way, I have a few points I would like to address. I do not intend on offending anyone, but if it does occur, I apologize in advance.
iwire said:Electricians can and do run cable phone and data. The company I work for is a one stop shop, we do whatever the customer wants us to do. And as hard as this will be for Hal to believe our customers seem to be happy with our service.
I have a few comments about the above quote. The first is about electricians running phone and data cable. True, it happens all of the time. I have seen some large EC outfits that have invested in their companies and hired professional LV techs that have been properly trained to do the job right. Then you have the other EC's that assume that all Cat5 is blue, and assume since it's a wire, they can run it. There are many rules to running data cable such as Cat5, 5e, 6, and 6e. If you are an EC that does not know the right questions to ask, you could cost yourself, and your customer a lot of money. I have had many a new cabling installation ripped out because of sub-standard work by EC's. Yes, brand new.
One instance in particular happened while I was employed with a small company a few years ago. In this case, the customer paid an EC for a data network. This EC had worked for years for this particular client and had a very cozy relationship. When the customer decided to build a new state of the art building the EC, who already had the inside track with the customer, easily convinced them to let them provide the voice and data cabling. He claimed he could do it all, cheaper and better. He was mistaken. I was sent to the site to do an inspection (2) days prior to the move/ equipment installation date. Upon my arrival I noticed within minutes, that what I had expected to see was not there. I had (38) locations for voice and data spec'd on the same blueprints the EC had. In the data room I only had (17) Cat 5 (not 5e) cables. 17 does not equal 38. Out of the (38) voice locations, I only had (14) cables. 14 does not equal 38. The data cables were not terminated to a patch panel. Instead were (3) single gang surface mount boxes attached to a backboard with sticky tape, Cat 5e (not Cat 5 to match the cable type) jack inserts, and 6 port faceplates. The voice cables were punched (one pair each (orange instead of blue), instead of all four) to a 25 pair 66 block instead of the standard 50 pair 66 block.
Then I looked in the ceiling. The main bundle of the cables were draped directly across at least (4) light ballast?s. The obvious kinks in the cable were too numerous to count. Instead of cutting the excess cable off, they elected to toss the extra 20'-30' into the ceiling in a big rats nest. When the cable was pulled out and removed, it was inspected and found to have hundreds of cuts in the cable jacket due to being pulled into the corners of the ceiling grid during the installation. Needless to say, I spent an hour with the customer that day pointing out all of the things I have just mentioned above. You may wonder how this ends.
The customer demands an explanation from the EC, and soon thereafter, a refund or some form of compensation. The EC offers to repair and/or replace the cable, if someone can come and show them how to do what needs to be done. That was a no-go with my boss. He basically told the EC to figure it out himself. So the customer is now less than 48 hours from the move date, and they have no cabling infrastructure. The EC stands firm that we can make his (17) Cat 5 cables run (34) PC's, plus the (4) associated network printers, if they would just go out and buy a few hubs? The customer has had it by this point and asks us if we can do the job correctly in the time frame we had. My boss pulled in a couple of extra men and we were able to get the job completed on the day of the move. We worked late and were able to finish everything down to the last paging horn. Everything worked and the customer was happy.
What happened to the EC? He lost a longtime customer and $17K. After going back and forth with the guy for 6 months or better, the customer finally decided to file suit. The judge gave the customer back the original $5K spent with the EC, and the $7K they paid us, the rest they paid in lawyers and court cost. The EC has never touched another LV project to my knowledge since.
The second point I want to make is about 'customer happiness'. Keeping happy customers is an extremely important part of the job for any company. We all have had unhappy customers at some point, and it's never a good thing. We saw from the example above what can happen when you make the wrong customer unhappy. Everyone involved in the above scenario I am certain learned a valuable lesson. The EC learned not to sign on for a job that he (obviously) had no business doing. The customer learned to consult experts in their respective industries. I think that I learned the most valuable lesson of all. I learned to stick with what I know. I get asked a lot for 110V outlet installs on the job. Could I do it? Sure I could. After all, a monkey can pull wire. I always politely decline and pass on the name of the EC's I work with locally. Likewise, when they are asked to install LV, they pass it to me. We work together instead of against one another, and we both make money off of each other. The best thing about it is the customer gets the right person for the right job. The work is done by professionals who know the job from A-Z, not by wire monkey's that just know bits and pieces of how to do a proper installation.
And last, iwire, if what you say is true about doing whatever the customer wants you to do, if I hire you to come out and wire up a building, can you also do an oil change on my vehicle and check the leaky faucet in the John?:grin:
To conclude I will say I hope I haven't made any enemies here. I expect to take some criticism, and possibly be ridiculed by the senior member's and the Moderator's for my views and opinions. I know the first thing that's going to be tossed out is that there are bad telecom contractors just like there are EC's. I couldn't agree more. I am just as vocal about those as I am about bad EC's, only on a different forum. I try not to leave anybody out.: grin:
- Location
- Massachusetts
Rich welcome to the forum, I will be honest your rant is to long for me to do more then skim through it. Compare the length of your post with most here and you might see what I mean.
I might, it simply depends on the customer. I have changed water heater elements and changed the oil on generators.
Once again I point out there is room for all of us and I can sleep just fine if that upsets the LV contractors.
rich30529 said:
I might, it simply depends on the customer. I have changed water heater elements and changed the oil on generators.
Once again I point out there is room for all of us and I can sleep just fine if that upsets the LV contractors.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Rich, I agree that guy had no business running the LV on that job, but not all electricians are that incompetent.
I have done plenty of data and voice wiring, I know how to terminate, I test every run, and it has all worked.
Added: I also do A/V wiring and installations. You're welcome to come see my home theater any time.
P.S. Welcome to the forum. Please continue to add your viewpoints.
I have done plenty of data and voice wiring, I know how to terminate, I test every run, and it has all worked.
Added: I also do A/V wiring and installations. You're welcome to come see my home theater any time.
P.S. Welcome to the forum. Please continue to add your viewpoints.
Last edited:
gregsparky1
Member
Alright guys. Lets not fight.
I thought about the booster thing but the only TV I thought might need it was the 48" HDTV. Although the picture was fine I suggested that to the customer and he declined saying that the job had gone twice as much as he expected. My invoice to him was for $750. He sent me $375. Don't forget I had invested 4 hours just in trouble shooting the crossed phone lines.
And oh yah. The cable system had no ground connector block either.
I thought about the booster thing but the only TV I thought might need it was the 48" HDTV. Although the picture was fine I suggested that to the customer and he declined saying that the job had gone twice as much as he expected. My invoice to him was for $750. He sent me $375. Don't forget I had invested 4 hours just in trouble shooting the crossed phone lines.
And oh yah. The cable system had no ground connector block either.
electricalperson
Senior Member
- Location
- massachusetts
so hes paying you only what he expected it should cost and not the actual cost?gregsparky1 said:
gregsparky1
Member
Yes. I guess some people have the gift to estimate jobs. Had I known that, I would have stopped when I hit $375.00. My crystal ball gets bad reception sometimes too. HA! I wonder if it's on channel 4? HAHA!!
But anyway. I would like to know if it is possible for a house with 9 TVs, to have one TV that can't receive channel 4, because of the cable installation?
All the splitters are centrally located in the attic. All the ins and out are in proper order. The runs are in the twentyfive to fifty foot range, except the HDTV which is about seventyfive feet. Cable is RG6. I can not verify the condition of the cable in the walls, since, like I said before, I had not originally installed the job. But, could a poorly installed (damaged) cable be so selective as to not transmit one channel? How Do It Know?
And Oh Yah! To answer some of your questions about why this customer would call an electrician to fix a cable problem. Well first, I was recommended. Second, in my area (Detroit) when the cable provider comes out to fix a problem, if it's in the house then it becomes your problem. By that I mean they will fix it for a fee. And that fee has already been determined by some higher-up person who knows how much these things should cost. Kind of like my customer.
So lets say an outlet cost is $50. And the run is on the other side of the house. And just for sh_ts and giggles lets say that room is on a slab with no basement access. If this installer isn't Hudini, this job may not turn out looking the best. Do you know what I mean Vern!
So, anyway. Anybody out there with some thoughts on the subject or have we killed this one? Thanks people.
But anyway. I would like to know if it is possible for a house with 9 TVs, to have one TV that can't receive channel 4, because of the cable installation?
All the splitters are centrally located in the attic. All the ins and out are in proper order. The runs are in the twentyfive to fifty foot range, except the HDTV which is about seventyfive feet. Cable is RG6. I can not verify the condition of the cable in the walls, since, like I said before, I had not originally installed the job. But, could a poorly installed (damaged) cable be so selective as to not transmit one channel? How Do It Know?
And Oh Yah! To answer some of your questions about why this customer would call an electrician to fix a cable problem. Well first, I was recommended. Second, in my area (Detroit) when the cable provider comes out to fix a problem, if it's in the house then it becomes your problem. By that I mean they will fix it for a fee. And that fee has already been determined by some higher-up person who knows how much these things should cost. Kind of like my customer.
So lets say an outlet cost is $50. And the run is on the other side of the house. And just for sh_ts and giggles lets say that room is on a slab with no basement access. If this installer isn't Hudini, this job may not turn out looking the best. Do you know what I mean Vern!
So, anyway. Anybody out there with some thoughts on the subject or have we killed this one? Thanks people.
DanZ
Senior Member
hbiss said:
Uh, Hal...if it's in the house, and they didn't install it, they aren't responsible for it. Some will fix it for free, some will fix it for a price, some will BS you to death about how the problem is in your house, and not at the amp down the street. I can prove this from the numerous times I've had them out to check on things.
DanZ
Senior Member
If the cable is damaged between the last splitter and the TV, yes it is possible. It is more likely to have static on or lose several other channels as well, so it would be a mighty neat trick to see!gregsparky1 said:
As far as ECs doing low voltage, if they have the tools and the knowledge, why not? I know our EC has run LV cable numerous times on our jobs, usually because he knows about all the little code issues, like securing wires and not letting them run on top of ceiling tile, that make it easier for him to run it and charge the LV guy for his time.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Uh, Hal...if it's in the house, and they didn't install it, they aren't responsible for it.
Like I said, there are things you don't know or understand. It's not quite as simple as you think. It's not like electrical contracting.
Cable companies equip their service trucks with leakage detection equipment for the purpose of finding signal leakage in the plant or subscriber premises. As they travel through neighborhoods problems are logged. It is required by the FCC to have a program in place and to correct the problems found. It doesn't matter if the problem is with OSP or in the subscriber's premises, the cable company is responsible because the FCC doesn't care where it's coming from, it has to be eliminated.
Ingress on the return or reverse channel is another serious problem with HFC systems that can shut down a node and service to the dozens of subscribers served by it. At the least it will cause problems with the subscriber's equipment. Some cable companies require their techs to automatically cut off and replace all connectors during a service call regardless of the purpose.
Cable companies have another program in place often called a "home health check". It's a QA program where the tech is required to test many parameters at three key points- tap, ground block and set. Their test equipment like a Trilithic 860 is set up to run macros that automate and log the results that get downloaded at the office at the end of the day for analysis.
Leakage and ingress can be caused by lots of things. Improper or improperly installed connectors, cable, splitters or just jacks that have nothing connected to them. If the problem is traced to a subscriber's premises the cable company will seek access to the premises to correct the problem. If the subscriber refuses they will disconnect them and refuse to provide them with service until they do.
-Hal
Like I said, there are things you don't know or understand. It's not quite as simple as you think. It's not like electrical contracting.
Cable companies equip their service trucks with leakage detection equipment for the purpose of finding signal leakage in the plant or subscriber premises. As they travel through neighborhoods problems are logged. It is required by the FCC to have a program in place and to correct the problems found. It doesn't matter if the problem is with OSP or in the subscriber's premises, the cable company is responsible because the FCC doesn't care where it's coming from, it has to be eliminated.
Ingress on the return or reverse channel is another serious problem with HFC systems that can shut down a node and service to the dozens of subscribers served by it. At the least it will cause problems with the subscriber's equipment. Some cable companies require their techs to automatically cut off and replace all connectors during a service call regardless of the purpose.
Cable companies have another program in place often called a "home health check". It's a QA program where the tech is required to test many parameters at three key points- tap, ground block and set. Their test equipment like a Trilithic 860 is set up to run macros that automate and log the results that get downloaded at the office at the end of the day for analysis.
Leakage and ingress can be caused by lots of things. Improper or improperly installed connectors, cable, splitters or just jacks that have nothing connected to them. If the problem is traced to a subscriber's premises the cable company will seek access to the premises to correct the problem. If the subscriber refuses they will disconnect them and refuse to provide them with service until they do.
-Hal
- Status