upgrading service

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pagestreet

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Q1 I am running a copper wire from the panel gnd bar to the main water pipe and onto 2 grounding rods 6ft appart. Does it matter if this is one continious line or can I run one line to the water pipe and a seperate line to the two grounding rods?

Q2. Iam bonding the hot and cold pipes at the water heater with the gas pipe on its load side. Do I connect this to the Gnd bar of my main panel?
 
I would use #6 green or bare to the ground rods. I try to keep it unbroken to the second rod but it is not required.
I try to avoid cold water pipe connection but if I have to, I use a seperate one from the panel or meter if possible.
 
Here's a good graphic regarding what's required to be continuous:

1113918256_2.jpg
 
upgrading service

pagestreet said:
Q1 I am running a copper wire from the panel gnd bar to the main water pipe and onto 2 grounding rods 6ft appart. Does it matter if this is one continious line or can I run one line to the water pipe and a seperate line to the two grounding rods?

Q2. Iam bonding the hot and cold pipes at the water heater with the gas pipe on its load side. Do I connect this to the Gnd bar of my main panel?
Click to expand...

I assume you are referring to the neutral bar and not a isolated grd bar.
A separate line to the first grd rod,and a jumper to the second one and also a separate line to the water pipe,is code compliant.
 
pagestreet said:
Q2. Iam bonding the hot and cold pipes at the water heater with the gas pipe on its load side. Do I connect this to the Gnd bar of my main panel?
Click to expand...


No this bonding jumper is not required to go back to the panel and is likely not required to go to the gas piping either.
 
pagestreet said:
Q1 I am running a copper wire from the panel gnd bar to the main water pipe and onto 2 grounding rods 6ft appart. Does it matter if this is one continious line or can I run one line to the water pipe and a seperate line to the two grounding rods?

Q2. Iam bonding the hot and cold pipes at the water heater with the gas pipe on its load side. Do I connect this to the Gnd bar of my main panel?
Click to expand...
I've never heard of anyone bonding a hot water pipe. Don't think that is necesarry
 
illustration details

illustration details

infinity said:
Here's a good graphic regarding what's required to be continuous:

1113918256_2.jpg
Click to expand...

This is very good graphics that really needs additional data to maintain code compliant requirements in Article 250. The illustrations needing clarification include:
#1 The waterpipe electrode must be bonded within 5 ft. of the pipe exiting from the concrete foundation. [250.52(A)(1)]
#3 The UFER (CEE) must be a continuous GEC with no splices from the Main Disconnect panel terminal bar (Service grounded and Equipment grounding). This requirement is very subtle in that the water pipe electrode can be a continuous #6 [250.52(A)(1)] while the UFER must have a continuous #4 GEC [250.52(A)(3)] in order to be compliant to [250.58] Common GEC's and [250.64(C)] Continuous GEC's.

The illustration is obviously an industrial example that has been in practice for a long time but in new construction there are cases where the 2005 and 2008 cycles can enforce the above to be imposed in both commercial and residential areas.

Happy Holidays, rbj
 
gndrod said:
This is very good graphics that really needs additional data to maintain code compliant requirements in Article 250. The illustrations needing clarification include:
#1 The waterpipe electrode must be bonded within 5 ft. of the pipe exiting from the concrete foundation. [250.52(A)(1)]
#3 The UFER (CEE) must be a continuous GEC with no splices from the Main Disconnect panel terminal bar (Service grounded and Equipment grounding). This requirement is very subtle in that the water pipe electrode can be a continuous #6 [250.52(A)(1)] while the UFER must have a continuous #4 GEC [250.52(A)(3)] in order to be compliant to [250.58] Common GEC's and [250.64(C)] Continuous GEC's.

The illustration is obviously an industrial example that has been in practice for a long time but in new construction there are cases where the 2005 and 2008 cycles can enforce the above to be imposed in both commercial and residential areas.

Happy Holidays, rbj
Click to expand...


The graphic is accurate for any type of installation including residential. Not sure what you're getting at with all of the stuff in #3, the continuous requirments? Please explain. :smile:
 
infinity said:
The graphic is accurate for any type of installation including residential. Not sure what you're getting at with all of the stuff in #3, the continuous requirments? Please explain. :smile:
Click to expand...

Rob, I agree and I don't understand what's being said in #3 either.

Roger
 
pagestreet said:
Q1 I am running a copper wire from the panel gnd bar to the main water pipe and onto 2 grounding rods 6ft appart. Does it matter if this is one continious line or can I run one line to the water pipe and a seperate line to the two grounding rods?

Q2. Iam bonding the hot and cold pipes at the water heater with the gas pipe on its load side. Do I connect this to the Gnd bar of my main panel?
Click to expand...

if the main water pipe is a grounding electrode, then 250.52 requires yiu to connect to it withing 5 ft of ot'd entrance to the building.
250.53(D)(2)allows you to connect your supplemental electrode to the interior piping system at any point.
 
roger said:
Rob, I agree and I don't understand what's being said in #3 either.

Roger
Click to expand...

Hi Rob and Roger,

As Mentioned, #3 shows the UFER tapped off of the water pipe electrode, which becomes a splice in the UFER electrodes GEC. The reason for the violation is that the continuous GEC from the panel can be a #6 awg conductor to the pipe.

The UFER GEC must be a continuous #4 awg to the panel. The illustration depicts the UFER GEC as a tapped connection (through the pipe) that reduces the UFER #4 GEC to a #6 awg back to the main panel constituting a code violation of both [250.62(C)] and [250.52(3)]

Residential GEC connections to both the UFER and H2O pipe electrodes can not be series connected as shown in the illustration for the reason of conductor sizing. Both are continuous until they are connected together at the Main Disconnect terminal bar. [250.58] rbj
 
gndrod said:
Hi Rob and Roger,

As Mentioned, #3 shows the UFER tapped off of the water pipe electrode, which becomes a splice in the UFER electrodes GEC. The reason for the violation is that the continuous GEC from the panel can be a #6 awg conductor to the pipe.

The UFER GEC must be a continuous #4 awg to the panel. The illustration depicts the UFER GEC as a tapped connection (through the pipe) that reduces the UFER #4 GEC to a #6 awg back to the main panel constituting a code violation of both [250.62(C)] and [250.52(3)]

Residential GEC connections to both the UFER and H2O pipe electrodes can not be series connected as shown in the illustration for the reason of conductor sizing. Both are continuous until they are connected together at the Main Disconnect terminal bar. [250.58] rbj
Click to expand...

Where does that illustration show any reduced sizes? There are NO sizes specified.

I think you are reading too much into the picture. There are no GEC sizes, or a service size for that matter. It is a generic illustration.
 
gndrod said:
Residential GEC connections to both the UFER and H2O pipe electrodes can not be series connected as shown in the illustration for the reason of conductor sizing. Both are continuous until they are connected together at the Main Disconnect terminal bar. [250.58] rbj
Click to expand...

There are no REQUIREMENTS to size CCE or ground rod GECs per 250.66(A)(B) or (C). I can install (and have) #4 to a ground rod. I can install 4/0 if I wanted, or the specs called for it.
 
gndrod said:
Hi Rob and Roger,

As Mentioned, #3 shows the UFER tapped off of the water pipe electrode, which becomes a splice in the UFER electrodes GEC. The reason for the violation is that the continuous GEC from the panel can be a #6 awg conductor to the pipe.

The UFER GEC must be a continuous #4 awg to the panel. The illustration depicts the UFER GEC as a tapped connection (through the pipe) that reduces the UFER #4 GEC to a #6 awg back to the main panel constituting a code violation of both [250.62(C)] and [250.52(3)]

Residential GEC connections to both the UFER and H2O pipe electrodes can not be series connected as shown in the illustration for the reason of conductor sizing. Both are continuous until they are connected together at the Main Disconnect terminal bar. [250.58] rbj
Click to expand...


The graphic is code compliant. The GEC can go to any electrode unbroken and all of the other electrode can be connected by bonding jumpers to that electrode or to other electrodes. The concept is install a grounding electrode system where all of the electrodes are somehow connected together. There is no requirement for the CEE or water pipe to go directly to the panel.


Also a bonding jumper or GEC to the CEE is not required to be #4, it could be #6 or #8 if your service entrance conductors are smaller than #1 cu. See 250.66.

You are correct that when using bonding jumpers to connect one electrode to another there are sizing issues that must be considered however the methodology depicted in Mike's graphic is code compliant.
 
Volta said:
I think gndrod is just referring to the need for the GEC to be without splices, except for busbar or irreversible types.
Click to expand...

There is one GEC, that is the conductor from the equipment to the first electrode, and in the illustration, that conductor does not have any splices in it, all others beyond that are jumpers.

There is no requirement that all the electrodes must be connected with an unbroken conductor, or that they all must go directly to the equipment.

Roger
 
Here is another illustration from the 2008 NECH.

GECjumpers.JPG


Roger
 
roger said:
There is no requirement that all the electrodes must be connected with an unbroken conductor, or that they all must go directly to the equipment.
Click to expand...

That is one of the most persistent myths in the electrical trade, and there is still widespread ignorance about how the GES conductors are to be connected. Thankfully both of those graphics clear up the confusion quite well. :cool:
 
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