I have been instructed to not use the White wire as a traveller when using 14-3 to wire 3 way switches for residential use. Is this per NEC code or is it my journeymans preference? He says its there in the code but could not remember exactly where. I have looked, but been unable to find it.
Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
- Thread starter midmich
- Start date
- Status
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
To correct your post heading there's never a case where you'll be using the "neutral" in a 3-way traveler. You'll always be switching ungrounded conductors.
Using the white wire as a traveler is just a preference. There are situations where you'll have to re-identify the white wire if it is used as the switched (ungrounded) conductor. For example: if you choose to run your wiring from the line side of the 3-way circuit to the lighting outlet and then to a load side 3-way switch, the white wire from the line side to the lighting outlet is the neutral conductor and remains white; the red and black wires are spliced through to the load side of the 3-way circuit. The white wire going to the load side of the 3-way is re-identified with black tape at both the switch end and at the lighting outlet.
Hope this helps.
To correct your post heading there's never a case where you'll be using the "neutral" in a 3-way traveler. You'll always be switching ungrounded conductors.
Using the white wire as a traveler is just a preference. There are situations where you'll have to re-identify the white wire if it is used as the switched (ungrounded) conductor. For example: if you choose to run your wiring from the line side of the 3-way circuit to the lighting outlet and then to a load side 3-way switch, the white wire from the line side to the lighting outlet is the neutral conductor and remains white; the red and black wires are spliced through to the load side of the 3-way circuit. The white wire going to the load side of the 3-way is re-identified with black tape at both the switch end and at the lighting outlet.
Hope this helps.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
The requirements and allowance to reidentity the "neutral" are in article 200 of the NEC. Its such an important topic that an entire article is devoted to it, and I recommend you review it (its not very long)
The requirements and allowance to reidentity the "neutral" are in article 200 of the NEC. Its such an important topic that an entire article is devoted to it, and I recommend you review it (its not very long)
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
In my opinion, 200.7(C) prohibits the use of the white conductor in a NM cable as a traveler or a feed to the light.
Don
In my opinion, 200.7(C) prohibits the use of the white conductor in a NM cable as a traveler or a feed to the light.
Don
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
Don, I agree with your interpretation that the white cannot go to the light, but I believe it can be used as a traveller. 200.7(c)(2) states that the white wire cannot be a return conductor to the switched outlet. I do not view a switch as an outlet because of the definition of outlet, which is: A point on the premises wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. Switches don't TAKE current, it (current) simply passes through the switch.
[ September 15, 2003, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
Don, I agree with your interpretation that the white cannot go to the light, but I believe it can be used as a traveller. 200.7(c)(2) states that the white wire cannot be a return conductor to the switched outlet. I do not view a switch as an outlet because of the definition of outlet, which is: A point on the premises wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. Switches don't TAKE current, it (current) simply passes through the switch.
[ September 15, 2003, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
Thw way that I read 200-7,c,2 the white wire can be used as a traveler between the switches if it is marked at each end. It is not allowed to feed the receptacle/light. I hardly ever wire 3 and 4 way switches this way. I find it easier to bring my hot (2 conductor cable) circuit to the first 3 way, run 3 conductor cable between switches, and power out to the light/recpt from the second 3 way with 2 conductor cable. This way the white wire is always used as the grounded conductor and the red and black are the travelers. No marking is required. If it is a 4 way all I have to do is add as many 4 way switches in the circuit as I want between the first and last 3 way.
Thw way that I read 200-7,c,2 the white wire can be used as a traveler between the switches if it is marked at each end. It is not allowed to feed the receptacle/light. I hardly ever wire 3 and 4 way switches this way. I find it easier to bring my hot (2 conductor cable) circuit to the first 3 way, run 3 conductor cable between switches, and power out to the light/recpt from the second 3 way with 2 conductor cable. This way the white wire is always used as the grounded conductor and the red and black are the travelers. No marking is required. If it is a 4 way all I have to do is add as many 4 way switches in the circuit as I want between the first and last 3 way.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
The main part of 200.7(C) says you can only use the white conductor of a cable as listed in (1) - (3). I don't see travelers listed in those sections.
Don
The main part of 200.7(C) says you can only use the white conductor of a cable as listed in (1) - (3). I don't see travelers listed in those sections.
Don
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
Don, I read parenthetical 2 as allowing it. Isn't a traveller really a "supply" to a switch? Maybe not the unswitched conductor to the first switch, but I think it supplies the second switch. Also, parenthetical 2 does address 3-way and 4-way switches.
Don, I read parenthetical 2 as allowing it. Isn't a traveller really a "supply" to a switch? Maybe not the unswitched conductor to the first switch, but I think it supplies the second switch. Also, parenthetical 2 does address 3-way and 4-way switches.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
Here's my take. First read Sec. 200-7(c)(1). My interpretation: You can only re-identify the white as an ungrounded conductor if the white is part of a cable assembly (NM, etc.). If you are in pipe you cannot re-identify the white and must pull a new white wire in the pipe.
Sec. 200-7(c)(2) I intrepret to say that if you use white in a cable assembly as an ungrounded conductor in a lighting circuit you must re-identify regardless of if it's used as the common or the switch leg. White wire used as an ungrounded conductor must be re-identified regardless of purpose.
Your nomenclature may vary.
Here's my take. First read Sec. 200-7(c)(1). My interpretation: You can only re-identify the white as an ungrounded conductor if the white is part of a cable assembly (NM, etc.). If you are in pipe you cannot re-identify the white and must pull a new white wire in the pipe.
Sec. 200-7(c)(2) I intrepret to say that if you use white in a cable assembly as an ungrounded conductor in a lighting circuit you must re-identify regardless of if it's used as the common or the switch leg. White wire used as an ungrounded conductor must be re-identified regardless of purpose.
Your nomenclature may vary.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
Wayne, I agree with your take, but like Don and I are saying...what function is it permitted to serve?
Wayne, I agree with your take, but like Don and I are saying...what function is it permitted to serve?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
Wayne,
Per 200.7(C)(2) the white cannot be used as the switch leg. As far as its use as a traveler, its is not completely clear in the code as Ryan has pointed out. It is still my opinion that the only code permitted use of the white wire in a NM cable for a switch circuit is as the power supply to the switch.
Don
Wayne,
Per 200.7(C)(2) the white cannot be used as the switch leg. As far as its use as a traveler, its is not completely clear in the code as Ryan has pointed out. It is still my opinion that the only code permitted use of the white wire in a NM cable for a switch circuit is as the power supply to the switch.
Don
dana1028
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
I agree with Don - 200.7(C)(2) says 'for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops the white conductor can be used 'for the supply to the switch'...they make no other allowances for the use of the white conductor.
I agree with Don - 200.7(C)(2) says 'for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops the white conductor can be used 'for the supply to the switch'...they make no other allowances for the use of the white conductor.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
Dana: Read my reply again. Isn't a traveller a supply to a switch (refering to the switch leg switch of the two)?
Dana: Read my reply again. Isn't a traveller a supply to a switch (refering to the switch leg switch of the two)?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
I do not think we can call a traveler the feed to the switch the second, third, forth switch etc. JMO.
Come down from the light on 2 wire using the white as the supply, get to the first switch box and splice the 2 wire white to the 3 wire white until you get to the far end, use red and black as travelers.
I will add here in MA we are not required to remark the white, if you are qualified you know the white can be used as a switch supply.
Bob
I do not think we can call a traveler the feed to the switch the second, third, forth switch etc. JMO.
Come down from the light on 2 wire using the white as the supply, get to the first switch box and splice the 2 wire white to the 3 wire white until you get to the far end, use red and black as travelers.
I will add here in MA we are not required to remark the white, if you are qualified you know the white can be used as a switch supply.
Bob
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
I agree with Ryan with respect to the use of the white conductor for a traveler. It seems to me that the function of the travelers is to supply the 2nd switch.
[ September 15, 2003, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: eprice ]
I agree with Ryan with respect to the use of the white conductor for a traveler. It seems to me that the function of the travelers is to supply the 2nd switch.
[ September 15, 2003, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: eprice ]
gregoryelectricinc
Senior Member
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
I have to agre with Ryan's interpretation as well, if the traveller's aren't supplying the switch then WHAT is? The white wire in a cable assembly can be used as a traveller, but must be re-identified.
I have to agre with Ryan's interpretation as well, if the traveller's aren't supplying the switch then WHAT is? The white wire in a cable assembly can be used as a traveller, but must be re-identified.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
Another thought...If the code didn't permit white as a traveller, why would they include 4-way switches in the code text? A 4-way switch has nothing but travellers on it.
Another thought...If the code didn't permit white as a traveller, why would they include 4-way switches in the code text? A 4-way switch has nothing but travellers on it.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
Interesting point.
Interesting point.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
Here is a link to an ECM discussion regarding the 1999 NEC adoption 200-7(C)(1,2):
http://www.ecmweb.com/ar/electric_illustrated_changes_nec_7
Here is a link to an ECM discussion regarding the 1999 NEC adoption 200-7(C)(1,2):
http://www.ecmweb.com/ar/electric_illustrated_changes_nec_7
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch
Thanks for the info and the discussion. I will not be using the white as a traveller again. And thanks Goldstar for correcting me on calling a white wire a neutral, just starting out in residential and should get out of the habit of calling white a neutral. I am looking forward to using this forum as another source of information. Thanks again
Thanks for the info and the discussion. I will not be using the white as a traveller again. And thanks Goldstar for correcting me on calling a white wire a neutral, just starting out in residential and should get out of the habit of calling white a neutral. I am looking forward to using this forum as another source of information. Thanks again
- Status