Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

Originally posted by midmich:
<snip> I will not be using the white as a traveller again. <snip>
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How did you come to this conclusion? What did I miss? Did you make this decision based on a new understanding of the NEC, or did you decide it's just not good practice? Enquiring Minds need to know :(

../Wayne C.

[ September 17, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
 
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Guest

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

I'm still waiting for an answer from Midmich to my question of Midmich. Once I have my answer, I will fully answer your question. Here's something to chew on in the meantime:

I was out of the trades during the last few code cycles (when the re-identification issue got codified). I know what is proper from the standpoint of ancient standard trade practices that I was taught many years ago. Previously if you did things in the conventional way you did not have to re-identify white. If you followed the conventions you could use white as an ungrounded conductor and you did not have to re-identify the white.

Then somebody got hurt. That somebody was a DIY. To that end in the interest of public safety you are now required by the NEC to re-identify white when white is used as an ungrounded conductor. This does not give you a Carte Blanche to use white as an ungrounded conductor. In most cases you cannot use white as an ungrounded conductor. Usually you will have to pull a new non-white/non-grey wire.

I am beating around the bush here, but I won't zoom in until I hear some reasoning from Midmich. I don't want to color his/her reply to my question above.

Suffice it to say for now that you can use white as an ungrounded conductor in limited situations but you must re-identify it. I yield my remaining time to Midmich.

../Wayne C.

[ September 17, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
 
H

html

Member
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

Hi, 2002 NEC pg 50 Article 200-7(C) (2) may help you with defining reidentifing in a permanent fashion. Good luck
CO
 
goldstar

goldstar

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

That is the article we've been discussing !!!

But the funny thing about it is that it implies that if you use a cable assembly (let's say 14/2 NMC) you can splice the white to the ungrounded conductor at the light outlet, have it run down to power the s/p switch and RETURN on the black conductor. However, it also implies that if you ran the conductors of a cable assembly (say 14/3 NMC) thru a light outlet and spliced the red and black travelers through, you cannot re-identify the white because it didn't FEED the switch.....it's the return ( if I read this correctly).

So, it's nice for the code to state what you can't do but it sure would be nice if it stated what you CAN do. Is there a remedy to this situation ???
 
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iceman2610

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

Hey guys,

Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees. I think this topic has been over-analyzed.

Article 200.6(A) States that you CANNOT mark a conductor as a grounded conductor if it is 6 AWG or smaller. There are 4 exceptions to this :
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The grounded conductor of mineral-insulated, metal sheathed cable may be identified at the time of installation by distinctive markings at its terminations</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A single-conductor sunlight-resistant outdoor-rated cable used as a grounded conductor in photovoltanic power systems as permitted by 690.31 shall be identified at the time of installation by distinctive white markings at all terminations.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fixture wire shall comply with the requirements for grounded conductor identification as specified in 402.8.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">For aerial cable, the identification shall be as above, or by means of a ridge located on the exterior of the cable so as to identify it.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
The code is placing requirements on the conductors used as a Grounded conductor. If a white conductor is used elsewhere as a phase conductor, then it must be re-marked!!!

The code also states in article 200.7 the a conductor of a white gray color or with three continuous white stripes may only be used as a grounded conductor except as permitted in 200.7(B) and (C).

In 200.7(C)(2), the code makes an exception for using these conductors as a phase conductor for single-pole, 3-way, or 4-way switch loops and states the requirements for remarking the conductors.

Anyone see this any different????
 
goldstar

goldstar

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

The code also states in article 200.7 the a conductor of a white gray color or with three continuous white stripes may only be used as a grounded conductor except as permitted in 200.7(B) and (C).

In 200.7(C)(2), the code makes an exception for using these conductors as a phase conductor for single-pole, 3-way, or 4-way switch loops and states the requirements for remarking the conductors.
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Gary,

This thread started out asking whether whe white wire in a cable assembly (say 14/3 NMC) can be used as a traveler in a 3-way switch scenario. If I'm reading 200.7(C)(2) correctly, while it doesen't specifically address whether you use it as a traveler or not, you cannot use the white as a traveler. Yet, if you read 200.7(C)(1) it states that you can.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I think what we need here is an official interpretation. I think I'll send an e-mail to Tom Miller of EC Mag and ask his opinion. If I get an answer I'll report back.

Phil
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

Phil,
Not to beat a dead horse, but I think what we need here is an official interpretation. I think I'll send an e-mail to Tom Miller of EC Mag and ask his opinion.
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That would not be an "official interpretation. Mr. Miller's opinion is no more vaild than any that have been expressed in this thread. The only "official interpretation" is one that results from the NFPA's formal interpretation process.
Don
 
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cwsnsons

Member
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

Well, Well. This is very interesting to read (I came in on the discussion late.)

Personally, I prefer to use Hillbilly's layout for such circuits, but only on the basis of preference. I don't see any code mandated basis to restrict myself to that method. It makes it easier to trace, for myself and the rest of our crew, as well as anyone coming in on the work years down the road. I also try to standardize in things like this, i.e. red and black in a 12-3g NM-B cable are always ungrounded conductors. I've sometimes wondered when doing repair/addition work why someone (no evidence of DIY here) ran a 12-3g and used the black and WHITE (un-re-identified) as the travelers?

Please don't send this horse to the glue plant yet, I've only been in "the trade" since '79 in plant maint. (individual conductors in pipe) and now in residential/commercial work. I've heard some of this already but also a good bit is really helpfull. I appreciate each one's input.

[ September 18, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: cwsnsons ]
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

Ryan_618,

Your take one 200.7(c)(2) is refreshingly clear.

The travellers coming to the second threeway are "used for the supply to the switch". The switched leg that comes off the common terminal of the switch and ends at the ungrounded conductor of the Luminaire is the "return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet"

The switched outlet, being the point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment, is not the J-box above the luminaire, rather the connection between the switched leg conductor and the luminaire ungrounded conductor. Therefore, re-identifying the white wire in the J-box above the luminaire is not at "the switched outlet".

I interpret the NEC as permitting the white conductor of a 3 conductor cable to be re-identified for use as a traveller.
 
goldstar

goldstar

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

Phil,

That would not be an "official interpretation. Mr. Miller's opinion is no more vaild than any that have been expressed in this thread. The only "official interpretation" is one that results from the NFPA's formal interpretation process.
Don
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Don,

You are correct. In my haste I used the wrong words. What I meant to imply was that Mr. Miller, being a recognized expert in our field and the author of The Illustrated Guide to the NEC, might have a more clear interpretation of the topic we are discussing and might shed a brighter light than that which we (experts) have offered thus far.

Also, his name is CHARLES Miller. Tom Miller is a friend of mine in my home town. Another Freudian slip on my part.

Regards,

Phil
 
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midmich

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

Ok, Wayne i decided to make it a personal preference, reidentification of the white is not always done,and i have seen a few instances where it has led to an individual getting a poke.(mainly friends who have called after deciding they can fix that problem switch themselves)My wife is an J.I.W. and i have been doing some residential(basic tasks such as replacing switches and the such) with her for 14 years. I have just begun my apprenticeship in residential,(1 year so far)and have a lot to learn. Such as the N.E.C. code can be as clear as mud in some instances.in this case why not go ahead and use the red and black and save a little time reidentifying the white, and any DIYer from getting a poke from an unidentified white because they think that the white "never" is "hot"
Thanks again for the discussion, it has been interesting to see the different interpretations. i can see now that a few pertinent subscriptions to magazines will be helpful also.
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

Don,

The main part of 200.7(C) says you can only use the white conductor of a cable as listed in (1) - (3). I don't see travelers listed in those sections.

Per 200.7(C)(2) the white cannot be used as the switch leg.
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Just as "travelers" aren't listed, neither are "switch legs". IMHO, substituting "switch leg" here creates a red monkey that includes, by inference, the travellers, as they are "switched" by the previous threeway or fourway.

The return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet is the conductor that is connected to the point that demarcs the end of the conductor and the beginning of the utilization equipment.

If one end of the conductor (in question) does not end at the switched outlet, it is not. . .the. . .return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet but is a conductor from a switch(1) to a switch(2), supplying the switch(2).
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

Hmmm,

Let's think of this another way. . .

Imagine: Occupancy with a single phase circuit breaker service center that is 100 Amp, 120 / 240 Volt. The service center has 15 and 20 Amp branch circuit breakers that include SWD capability. (Think of, say, the standard Square D QO115 and QO120.)

The occupancy branch circuits are wired with NM-B.

Imagine a fluorescent luminaire in the occupancy controlled by one wall mounted single pole switch. . .The branch circuit feed goes to the J-box above the luminaire on a 14-2 NM-B, and another 14-2 NM-b goes from the luminaire J-box to the single pole switch.

Can I, or can I not, re-identify the white wire in the 14-2 switch loop?
 
G

Guest

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

What's the interpretation of 404.14(E)?

Edited: Whoops, sorry-- I already knew that was the wrong citation. I'll post back with the right one when I come back.

[ September 20, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

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Location
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Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

No dimmer is installed at the single pole wall mounted switch.

Can I, or can I not, re-identify the white wire in the 14-2 switch loop?
 
goldstar

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Re: Using neutral as a traveller on 3way switch

Imagine a fluorescent luminaire in the occupancy controlled by one wall mounted single pole switch. . .The branch circuit feed goes to the J-box above the luminaire on a 14-2 NM-B, and another 14-2 NM-b goes from the luminaire J-box to the single pole switch.

Can I, or can I not, re-identify the white wire in the 14-2 switch loop?
Click to expand...
Al, the way I read 200.7(C)(2) as long as the white wire is feeding the switch it must be re-identified at both the lighting outlet and the switch outlet. Now, let's take the same scenario and make it a 3-way switch (with black and red being travelers) can I re-identify the white wire ? According to the same section you cannot because it is a return from the switch. However, if you read 200.7(C)(1) it states that if the white wire is part of a cable assembly it should be permanently re-identified as an ungrounded conductor. The part that I find confusing is whether (1) overrides (2) or vice versa !!! :confused:
 
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