Utility High Leg, Open Delta Phase Converter, and a Motor That Can't Use Either

Why not just Buck the Highleg?

You can't have balanced L-L and L-N voltage simultaneously on a delta.

If you just put a buck transformer on the high leg, you could get 120V L-N on all three legs. But this would also change the L-L voltages, and you'd be left with a 240V, 170V, 170V system rather than 240V all around.

Jonathan
 
You can't have balanced L-L and L-N voltage simultaneously on a delta.

If you just put a buck transformer on the high leg, you could get 120V L-N on all three legs. But this would also change the L-L voltages, and you'd be left with a 240V, 170V, 170V system rather than 240V all around.

Jonathan
IMHO The bucking would need to occur at the load. This would be a design issue with the equipment and not a supply issue.
 
Thanks for the more in depth explanation. This converter had 267V phase to ground, significantly higher than the incoming from utility...
That can be fine tuned to some extent by changing value of connected capacitors within the rotary phase converter. It can still vary depending on loading conditions though. That is with a basic RPC. There are some out there with more complex controls on them to monitor and adjust to put out a more balanced voltage. They still are going to have a high leg though, even if the idler motor is wye connected, if you draw out the connections including the supply source, you have that supply source across two ends of the wye with a mid point ground on it, the neutral of the wye is left floating or it would result in high fault current if it were grounded. The derived third phase is the remaining motor winding and if your drawing is accurately drawn to vector distance and correct angles you will still have 1.732 times the phase to phase voltage from that high leg to the grounded point, which is part of the supply circuit and not the neutral of the wye connected motor windings.
 
I assumed the same but the technician said that it specifically stated no high leg for motor.
This is the result of an Italian engineer not understanding what a "high leg" really means, and/or someone explained it to them wrong. A 230V 3 phase motor doesn't USE anything that it L-N or L-G, it only uses L to L, and on a "high leg" delta, it is still 240V L-L on all legs. It is only "high" with reference to ground.

CONTROLS might care, but if the machine is built with a 400Y230V motor capability, it's likely that the controls are NOT using 120V, they are using an auto-ranging SMPS to provide 24VDC for the controls, that way the same machi9ne design works in any configuration.

Now, the "245V max" may be true, in that the motor is designed as 230V 50Hz, and IEC motors are somewhat "unforgiving" when it comes to voltage tolerance. Some of them are +-5%, whereas a NEM<A motor is +-10%. So a 230V motor +5% puts it at 241V, but because the V/Hz ratio is lower because we are 60Hz, they are likely making a little more allowance.

I wouldn't put any more thought into this and just use a 7.5kVA 230D to 230Y133 Drive Isolation Transformer as Jim Dungar said a while ago, like an Acme DTFA72S*, should be under $2k for the transformer, maybe a couple of hundred for fusing and appurtenances. It has taps to adjust the voltage too, solves all problems.

* Any brand is fine, I just grabbed that because I happen to have a catalog here.
 
Yeah thats what I'd quote along with getting a quote from the POCO to either close the delta or if they are a POCO thats getting rid of delta's I might even ask them for a cost esitmate on providing a 220Y/127 service at the customers expense as neither of those involve any changes on the customer side.
I'd rather throw the $$ at the POCO for a transformer upgrade as the customer side transformer losses are forever on the monthly bill.
If they did do a customer owned 240Y/139 it might be worth considering a 240Y/139 panelboard as other equipment gets upgraded it will also probably want that.


I doubt that, the EU's Low Voltage Directive (LVD) (2014/35/EU) state for their nominal 230V supply, the permitted voltage variation is +10% and -6%. This means any equipment made for the common market should accept a voltage range from 207V - 253V.
IEC 60038 allows +/- 10% voltage variation under normal conditions.
EN 50160 further defines normal as 95% of the time and does not have a limit for the other 5%.
Most of the time they use open delta’s because they don’t have to run the third line in a wye system. If it’s a rural area without the third line, and they just need a cheap way to get three phase out there. So in the OP’s situation, they may also need to run the third line some distance, along with the added transformer.
 
The customer decided to revert the machine back to 480V input and we will get a 240D-480Y transformer to step up and balance everything.

As a side note, the senior tech who could answer my questions is apparently on vacation and customer did not want to wait till he got back to resolve the issue. This has been a good learning experience for me however so I will not complain too much. The techs are all American that I have been communicating with.

Thanks for the help y'all!

Jonathan
 
Most of the time they use open delta’s because they don’t have to run the third line in a wye system. If it’s a rural area without the third line, and they just need a cheap way to get three phase out there. So in the OP’s situation, they may also need to run the third line some distance, along with the added transformer.

They commonly use open delta even if all three phase primary lines are present around here for limited load applications. Center pivot irrigation machine being the only load supplied is pretty common to not supply from a wye or full delta. They typically only have 30 amp max overcurrent protection on the main supply circuit. If also powering a well, it usually will be at least 20 or more HP and they usually will go with 480/277 wye in those cases unless not all three primary phases are present. I did hook up one this spring with a 20 HP well and a big rotary phase converter since there was only single phase primary in the area. The idler motor was like 40 or 50 HP frame and huge compared to the well motor.
 
They commonly use open delta even if all three phase primary lines are present around here for limited load applications. Center pivot irrigation machine being the only load supplied is pretty common to not supply from a wye or full delta. They typically only have 30 amp max overcurrent protection on the main supply circuit. If also powering a well, it usually will be at least 20 or more HP and they usually will go with 480/277 wye in those cases unless not all three primary phases are present. I did hook up one this spring with a 20 HP well and a big rotary phase converter since there was only single phase primary in the area. The idler motor was like 40 or 50 HP frame and huge compared to the well motor.
Here, if all three phases are available, you’re getting a wye. LOL! We don’t have much irritation other than in middle and south Georgia.
 
The customer decided to revert the machine back to 480V input and we will get a 240D-480Y transformer to step up and balance everything.
If your customer needs to add more equipment down the road you could look at a doing a 480V service and probably use the transformer to supply the old 240V equipment.
 
We don’t have much irritation other than in middle and south Georgia.
A big reason we have a lot of irrigation here is we have an abundance of ground water compared to a lot of places. Along with that comes special hybrid crops that can deliver high yields, if they get enough water. Those hybrids won't do so well on non irrigated land if you don't get enough water where there are other hybrids that are more drought resistant that typically will be planted on "dryland". You don't invest in all this equipment and energy to run it if you not going to try to get maximum yield out of your crop in other ways as well.

One of if not the largest aquifer in the world with the highest saturation levels being throughout a large portion of Nebraska. There is a lot of debate of impact of all this pumping on the aquifer and whether it can recharge fast enough to keep up with demand. There are many that claim static water levels in their wells hasn't really changed much over the years. Yes they may drop during a dry year but usually do recover according to claims I've heard.

If the geology interests you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer
 
The customer decided to revert the machine back to 480V input and we will get a 240D-480Y transformer to step up and balance everything.
I have suggested that many times at a campus I regularly work at, for some reason they always go with a 240 wye drive isolation transformer, I think I have installed about least two last year for a HVAC contractor, one of reasons cited by corporate was less burden on the safety and compliance team as they get check the 'no' box next to 'systems over 300V' on a safety evaluation form, which sounds dumb I know. The other was cost which was also hard to believe but I don't purchase the stuff.
 
A big reason we have a lot of irrigation here is we have an abundance of ground water compared to a lot of places. Along with that comes special hybrid crops that can deliver high yields, if they get enough water. Those hybrids won't do so well on non irrigated land if you don't get enough water where there are other hybrids that are more drought resistant that typically will be planted on "dryland". You don't invest in all this equipment and energy to run it if you not going to try to get maximum yield out of your crop in other ways as well.

One of if not the largest aquifer in the world with the highest saturation levels being throughout a large portion of Nebraska. There is a lot of debate of impact of all this pumping on the aquifer and whether it can recharge fast enough to keep up with demand. There are many that claim static water levels in their wells hasn't really changed much over the years. Yes they may drop during a dry year but usually do recover according to claims I've heard.

If the geology interests you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogallala_Aquifer
The fields in North Georgia are much smaller, usually less than 20 acres. So irrigation would not be practical. Our tractors are seldom more than 40 hp too. We have lots of streams and rivers, but very seldom used as irrigation sources.
 
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