Vending machine Gfci: Lawsuit waiting to happen?

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brother

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Been reading the new 2008 code. They change the language a little from the '05 code about vending machines 422.51 (422.51 '08code)
All the new vending machines made after 1 January 2005 will have to have the gfci plug built into it. but the old ones are another story. 'The old machines (built before 1Jan '05) will have to be plug into a gfci protected outlet.

The only problem i have with this is that some of the Stores/malls/public places still have the their old vending machines (made before 2005) AND the Management/ owner is NOT aware of the code requireing the OLD machines to be plug into a gfci protected outlet and they really don't have a steady means to be informed. Maybe this a 'potential' market for EC to solicit.


This retroactive requirement I believe is gonna open up potential lawsuits for the old machines/owners. I was told the original reason for this gfci requirement was that a kid got killed/electricuted when they were using the machine. This really sounds like an egc issue, apparrently the metal on the machine wasnt properly grounded to open the breaker.

I think this is the FIRST time ive seen the code make something RETROACTIVE (things that were Code at the time of installation) to bring to modern day code. If there are others please let me know.
I truely believe this is gonna set a bad precedent. Dont get me wrong im all for 'protecting' children, but to make it 'retroactive' i think is a bit much, at least according to principle. Your opinion please????
 
i remember reading about a guy who was shocked by a vending machine; i think it was in EC&M in the investigative column. Said there were witnesses and visible burns on the guy's arm. He reached in to grab his can and was blown back a few feet. He was suing. I'm not sure though its saying its retroactive to previous installations. I think what they're trying to say is that if an older unit is placed in a new installation, it must have a GFCI receptacle.
 
brantmacga said:
i remember reading about a guy who was shocked by a vending machine; i think it was in EC&M in the investigative column. Said there were witnesses and visible burns on the guy's arm. He reached in to grab his can and was blown back a few feet. He was suing. I'm not sure though its saying its retroactive to previous installations. I think what they're trying to say is that if an older unit is placed in a new installation, it must have a GFCI receptacle.
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That would be fine, however that does NOT specifically say that. Thats some language that NEEDS to be clarified. I can see attorneys having them selves a 'hay day ' with this one.

The exact language says
nec said:
Older vending machines manufactured or remanufactured prior to Jan 1, 2005, shall be connected to a gfci portected outlet.......
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It would be something to argue and say this is for old machines in NEW/REMODLED buildings, but at the same time the language in this article leaves the door open and 'emotional activist argueing for the protection of children' saying its for both OLD and new buildings, seeing how the vending machine has to be restocked anyways and its not a 'huge' cost to the owner/manager to just use a dolly and move the machine out and replace the recepticle with a gfci that cost about $12 in less than 30 minutes.

I know i sound like the devil's advocate. ;)
 
brother said:
Been reading the new 2008 code. They change the language a little from the '05 code about vending machines 422.51 (422.51 '08code)
All the new vending machines made after 1 January 2005 will have to have the gfci plug built into it. but the old ones are another story. 'The old machines (built before 1Jan '05) will have to be plug into a gfci protected outlet.
The only problem i have with this is that some of the Stores/malls/public places still have the their old vending machines (made before 2005) AND the Management/ owner is NOT aware of the code requireing the OLD machines to be plug into a gfci protected outlet and they really don't have a steady means to be informed. Maybe this a 'potential' market for EC to solicit.
This retroactive requirement I believe is gonna open up potential lawsuits for the old machines/owners. I was told the original reason for this gfci requirement was that a kid got killed/electricuted when they were using the machine. This really sounds like an egc issue, apparrently the metal on the machine wasnt properly grounded to open the breaker.
I think this is the FIRST time ive seen the code make something RETROACTIVE (things that were Code at the time of installation) to bring to modern day code. If there are others please let me know.
I truely believe this is gonna set a bad precedent. Dont get me wrong im all for 'protecting' children, but to make it 'retroactive' i think is a bit much, at least according to principle. Your opinion please????
Click to expand...

In My Opinion ... Here is My Reply ...
I think that the vending companies should be informed of the change,due to safety issues,and than it be required by law for them to send out service personel to install the GFCI plug(s) onto all of thier licensed machines. Next, after a specified date, they would
not be able to obtain a license for that particular machine until it has been verified to be in accordance with the NEC code by a local electrical inspector.The law should also state that no such public access electrical equipment (machine) be permitted to be used without an approved GFCI plug.This way all of the manufacturers would have to comply and not just the soda / drink beverage dispensing /vending machine industry. You know it's just a matter of time before all electrical equipment will have to have grnd fault protection anyway.
Carl :)
 
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Krim said:
In My Opinion ... Here is My Reply ...
I think that the vending companies should be informed of the change,due to safety issues,and than it be required by law for them to send out service personel to install the GFCI plug(s) onto all of thier licensed machines. Next, after a specified date, they would
not be able to obtain a license for that particular machine until it has been verified to be in accordance with the NEC code by a local electrical inspector.The law should also state that no such public access electrical equipment (machine) be permitted to be used without an approved GFCI plug.This way all of the manufacturers would have to comply and not just the soda / drink beverage dispensing /vending machine industry. You know it's just a matter of time before all electrical equipment will have to have grnd fault protection anyway.
Carl :)
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Thats fine, however Im going to be the 'opposing arguementive side' again, and say what of the venders that dont acutally OWN the machine, they just give the the supply. Then its the owners/management responsibilty.

To have an electrical inspector be weighed down with inspections for a 'single' electrical outlet that NORMALLY would not require a PERMIT to be done would be extra costs. ok im done. lol
 
brother said:
Thats fine, however Im going to be the 'opposing arguementive side' again, and say what of the venders that dont acutally OWN the machine, they just give the the supply. Then its the owners/management responsibilty.

To have an electrical inspector be weighed down with inspections for a 'single' electrical outlet that NORMALLY would not require a PERMIT to be done would be extra costs. ok im done. lol
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Yeah, I'd hav'ta agree with you the more I think about it. You've also brought up a very good point about not wasting the EI's time, since most businesses have annual contracts for thier fire system maintenance along with checking & refilling/replacing the extinguishers, maybe they could provide the safety compliance inspections. Especially since it's the NFPA that reviews, approves, enforces and publishes the NEC code. :grin:
Carl :)
 
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I got my first shock from a vending machine. I was probably 8 years old and my Dad said "Go touch that cigarette machine" (remember those?). I grabbed onto the shiny chrome pull handle and got the crap shocked out of me.

My Dad was the nicest guy in the world but, what the hell????
 
220/221 said:
I got my first shock from a vending machine. I was probably 8 years old and my Dad said "Go touch that cigarette machine" (remember those?). I grabbed onto the shiny chrome pull handle and got the crap shocked out of me.

My Dad was the nicest guy in the world but, what the hell????
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did it stop you from smoking? :D
 
I can see a article 100 change due over this. What about those little fridges that have soft drinks in them near the check stand? What about a postage stamp machine? ATM? Wow, what a can of worms this will open.
 
Minuteman said:
I can see a article 100 change due over this. What about those little fridges that have soft drinks in them near the check stand? What about a postage stamp machine? ATM? Wow, what a can of worms this will open.
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well in the 2008 code they define the term vending machine 422.51. And you right, the little frig by the check stand would fall under this definition. Also what about those mobile guys at the parks and special events selling hot dogs, sodas, candy (IF THERE IS ANY TYPE OF SELF SERVICE) that are pluged in etc.. that last part that says receipt of payment by OTHER means is a catch all phrase I do not think ATM would fall under definition. lol

NEC said:
......For the purpose of this section, the term vending machine means any self-service device that dispenses products or mechandise without the necessity of replenishing the device between each vending operation and is designed to require insertion of a coin, paper currency, token, card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.

FPN: For futher information ,see ANSI/UL 541-2005, Standard for Refrigerated Vending Machines, or ANSI/UL 751-2005, Standard for Vending Machines.
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Originally Posted by NEC
......For the purpose of this section, the term vending machine means any self-service device that dispenses products or mechandise without the necessity of replenishing the device between each vending operation and is designed to require insertion of a coin, paper currency, token, card, key, or receipt of payment by other means.
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What about a slot machine... CHA CHING!
 
"..For the purpose of this section, the term vending machine means any self-service device that dispenses products or mechandise without the necessity of replenishing the device between each vending operation and is designed to require insertion of a coin, paper currency, token, card, key, or receipt of payment by other means."

So, if the sodas were free, no GFCI protection is required. Simple solution.
 
I had to get rid of my beer machine anyway, cause somehow word got around and one day one of the neighborhood kids knocked on my door with a beer in his hand and told me he just wanted a soda lol (glad I found out before things turned ugly - didn't even know the kids knew the machine was there)
 
Older vending machines manufactured or remanufactured prior to Jan 1, 2005, shall be connected to a gfci portected outlet.......
Click to expand...

Well, to get outlandishly technical, the sentence -- I believe -- is using the word connected as part of the predicate, i.e. a subjunctive participle, and is not using it as an adjectival particple.

Translation: the machines, when they are connected (intransitive verb) -- literally, when the connection to power is made by putting prongs into a receptacle so that the machine can operate -- they shall be connected, i.e. inserted, into a GFCI. I see this as pertaining to when a change is made to an old machine with regard to -- maybe location -- that it must be updated.

The other way, the popular interpretation, translates this way: the machines, when they are in a state of connection -- literally, whenever they are energized -- shall be protected by GFCI. This interpretation would make the section retroactive, but doesn't necessarily seem to be what is written.

If (1) you all understand what I just wrote, or (2) I come back in the morning and understand what I wrote, I will be amazed either way!;) :grin:
 
brantmacga said:
i remember reading about a guy who was shocked by a vending machine; i think it was in EC&M in the investigative column. Said there were witnesses and visible burns on the guy's arm. He reached in to grab his can and was blown back a few feet. He was suing. I'm not sure though its saying its retroactive to previous installations. I think what they're trying to say is that if an older unit is placed in a new installation, it must have a GFCI receptacle.
Click to expand...

Can someone really be "blown back a few feet" from 120volts?
 
lordofpi said:
Well, to get outlandishly technical, the sentence -- I believe -- is using the word connected as part of the predicate, i.e. a subjunctive participle, and is not using it as an adjectival particple.

Translation: the machines, when they are connected (intransitive verb) -- literally, when the connection to power is made by putting prongs into a receptacle so that the machine can operate -- they shall be connected, i.e. inserted, into a GFCI. I see this as pertaining to when a change is made to an old machine with regard to -- maybe location -- that it must be updated.

The other way, the popular interpretation, translates this way: the machines, when they are in a state of connection -- literally, whenever they are energized -- shall be protected by GFCI. This interpretation would make the section retroactive, but doesn't necessarily seem to be what is written.

If (1) you all understand what I just wrote, or (2) I come back in the morning and understand what I wrote, I will be amazed either way!;) :grin:
Click to expand...


I think I comprehend that which you had written ... of course I'm only on my second cup of coffee ... am I awake and functioning mentally yet ? :confused:
Carl :D
 
jrannis said:
Can someone really be "blown back a few feet" from 120volts?
Click to expand...

Stand barefoot in a pool of water and insert an uninsulated metalic object into the little slot of the non-GFCI receptacle ... afterwards let us know the results of your little scientific research experiment .

Carl :D
 
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