Very basic question, first solar job

[ggunn]

I was going to go help them with this one because it was large, and because I wanted to see the roof mounting is done. However, other responsibilities kept me in the office, and I didn't help with it, so I didn't get to see it first hand. Here is some information I am finding on it now:

Latitude: all the jobs we're currently working on are between 35 and 37 degrees. This particular one is about 36.15 degrees N latitude.

Size of system/other loads: the house is decently-sized so you would think maybe they have other loads that justify the size of the system. But I believe my crew told me when they got there, they found a 100A main panel, which was not large enough for the solar power system, so they ended up changing the main panel out to a 200A one to start with (which the solar company bought all the materials for). I'm looking at some information about the house now. It was built in 1981 and it's 2541 square feet, all crammed into a house that doesn't look that large from the outside. So if no other loads were added since it was built, it would make sense they would still have the 100A panel. This was missed by the people writing up the blueprints. They must have just assumed it was 200A.

Shape/orientation: The second story is hidden under a steeply-sloped roof, probably 1:1 pitch from the pictures. The house is situated at a 45 degree angle from the cardinal directions. The front faces SE. Actually, roof pitches are noted on the prints and are generally 7:12 to 8:12 if the prints match what's really there.
View attachment 2563028

Panels/directions: Solar panels are 410 peak watts each. There are 58 panels, (not 48 like I said before). The total system is listed on the prints as 23.780 kWp (I guess in some imaginary world where the four suns shine down from all directions at once).
Front SE-facing roof: 23 panels. Prints say "roof pitch 8:12" and "tilt: 35 degrees."
Front gable above garage: 8 panels, four facing 45° and four facing 225°. Pitch 7:12, tilt 30 degrees.
Rear main roof facing NW: 18 panels, pitch 8:12, tilt 35 degrees.
Small rear gable: 1 panel facing SW, pitch 7:12, 35 degrees.
additional rear roof extension over back porch: 8 panels, pitch 2:12, tilt 12 degrees.

Shade: some trees are visible behind the house in the picture, but those are the closest ones. The neighboring house to the SW is closer. There are similar trees in front of the house, but they're further away, across the street. And of course, the house gables will offer partial shade to each other.

Overall, this one doesn't make sense. This is the most egregious example of an oversized system with panels installed where they don't even provide much power, that we have done. Other systems we have installed with this company make more sense than this, but almost all of them are at least slightly over-sized, in my opinion.

Just eyeballing the photo the roof pitch looks more like 45 degrees to me.

 

[Mr. Serious]

Just eyeballing the photo the roof pitch looks more like 45 degrees to me.

That's what I thought, but sometimes roof and ceiling angles in photos can be deceiving.

 

[ggunn]

That's what I thought, but sometimes roof and ceiling angles in photos can be deceiving.

I have looked at a whole lot of photos from PV system site surveys; IMO that's not where the deception is.

 

[solarken]

So, the prints look to be very well put together, upon first inspection. But of course, with all the comments here, I'll definitely do my research.

I am smart enough to figure this out, even though I haven't done it before. I have a BA in Physics and a MSEE. I have experience installing things on roof tops. Nine years ago, I was planning to pursue NABCEP certification, but at the time, my wife argued very hard against it, because she is risk averse, and she thought there was a good possibility there was a scam. I argued for days, but I tend to go with what other people say if they argue hard enough. So I ended the argument with me saying that I was 90% to 95% sure that NABCEP certification is not a scam, but as I was unable to easily find proof of that, based on my perceived 5% to 10% probability that it was a scam, I would accede to her wishes, and not pay for the classes and pursue certification. More recently, I have come across job listings specifically asking for NABCEP certification, so I now know it's not a scam, but I don't have the time right now to pursue it.

I would still like to learn to do solar power installations. But I understand: even if the prints are perfect and the system expertly engineered, maybe the company is under-paying, and that's why they can't get anyone to do the jobs. And it would behoove me to pursue some other route to getting into solar power.

It sounds like the typical company that markets solar across a large geographic area, makes pitches and sells contracts to customers, and tries to find contractors to complete them. I have seen many customers screwed over and unhappy after these deals. If it is what it looks like, and you don't have the experience to catch issues with what they ask you to do, the customers will not be happy. I did a quick search and up popped a company SVR that is based in AR, with an office in OK. Looks like a marketing company to me.

As far as NABCEP, it is not a scam. I have BSEE and MSEE and I learned a lot going through the training and studying for the Installation Professional certification. Also, it is not just study and pass exam, you need to document three installs where you were the lead, and meet some other requirements before being eligible to apply.

Besides designing and installing and running my company, I do a bit of O&M work on systems others installed, often because the installer went out of business or were an out of state outfit or a contractor hired by a national marketer, and the customer either couldn't reach them or they did't have the expertise to troubleshoot and fix it. It is always clear to me when I see a system that was designed or installed by inexperienced individuals. Night and day compared to real solar contractors that know what they are doing.

If you are going to take on solar installs for such companies, I highly recommend you get the proper training, get intimately familiar with 690 and 705 and other sections of NEC concerning solar, and do a lot of research on the best manufacturers of components available. If you don't, the customers will suffer and you won't likely be successful in the long run.

 

[ggunn]

I'll just add that if the customer has a problem it is likely that you will be on the hook to fix it rather than those guys. If you are not trained and/or experienced in installing PV systems you might find that to be a tall order. Grid tied PV is fundamentally fairly simple but the devil is in the details. If there is storage (batteries) involved then systems can get pretty complex and even experienced designers and installers can find such systems very challenging.

 

[jaggedben]

I'll just add that if the customer has a problem it is likely that you will be on the hook to fix it rather than those guys. ...

Read your contract carefully. You're usually only on the hook for what you signed for on the dotted line.

 

[petersonra]

Read your contract carefully. You're usually only on the hook for what you signed for on the dotted line.

You are always responsible for the work you do. If someone else is supplying material then they are responsible for replacing defective material.

Beyond that it is tough to make any generalization because it depends on what the contract says. However, as a licensed contractor I think you're going to have a difficult time weasling out of any responsibility at all for a system that goes down the tubes.

Doesn't even matter what the contract says. The contract is between you and the guy that is paying the bill, which is the marketing people that sold the jobs.

The homeowner is unlikely to care much about the finer points of the contract that you hold with someone else.

Even if the other guy agrees to take care of warranty issues, he's out of state how are you going to compel him to do so?

 

[ggunn]

You are always responsible for the work you do. If someone else is supplying material then they are responsible for replacing defective material.

Beyond that it is tough to make any generalization because it depends on what the contract says. However, as a licensed contractor I think you're going to have a difficult time weasling out of any responsibility at all for a system that goes down the tubes.

Doesn't even matter what the contract says. The contract is between you and the guy that is paying the bill, which is the marketing people that sold the jobs.

The homeowner is unlikely to care much about the finer points of the contract that you hold with someone else.

Even if the other guy agrees to take care of warranty issues, he's out of state how are you going to compel him to do so?

What he said. If you are the point of contact with the customer, then you are the one who is going to get the call if/when something goes wrong. It will be your task to fix the problem and to enforce whatever is in the contract between you and the supplier; you will not be able to tell the customer to take their problem to the supplier. By using you as the pont man he has insulated himself from the customer. Do you have a service department? If not, you'd better get one.

 

[jaggedben]

You are always responsible for the work you do.

You are always responsible for damage you cause. You're never responsible to keep things working free of charge except if there's a warranty in the contract. Which would (presumably) be your subcontract with the sales company. If the sales company agreed to a warranty with the customer but didn't obligate you to a warranty in the subcontract, that's their problem.

The sticky question here would be roof leaks. (Is that damage or a warranty issue? After how long?) Other stuff it should be pretty clear if you have an obligation or not.

If someone else is supplying material then they are responsible for replacing defective material.

That has no bearing on who is responsible to the customer for the work.

However, as a licensed contractor I think you're going to have a difficult time weasling out of any responsibility at all for a system that goes down the tubes.

Licensing has little to do with it. It could be worse if you weren't licensed though.

Doesn't even matter what the contract says.

Except for obligations under state law that you can't waive, which will vary by state... Absolutely it matters what the contract says.

The contract is between you and the guy that is paying the bill, which is the marketing people that sold the jobs.

Right. If that's so, you have no ultimate obligation to the homeowner.

A company I worked for did dozens of installs under subcontract for a large company that contracted with customers. That company went bankrupt. My company had zero obligation to continue servicing the systems under a subcontract with an entity that no longer existed. We tried to be nice when customers contacted us but told people we had to charge.

The homeowner is unlikely to care much about the finer points of the contract that you hold with someone else.

And I'm unlikely to care about the finer points of the homeowner's contract with someone else if it's not referred to in my contract with the someone else.

Even if the other guy agrees to take care of warranty issues, he's out of state how are you going to compel him to do so?

Not your problem. Homeowner's problem. Be nice and explain the situation, that you have to charge for service but you will 'give them a deal'. Not that you legally have to, but to avoid bad reviews.

 

[jaggedben]

What he said. If you are the point of contact with the customer, then you are the one who is going to get the call if/when something goes wrong. It will be your task to fix the problem and to enforce whatever is in the contract between you and the supplier; you will not be able to tell the customer to take their problem to the supplier. By using you as the pont man he has insulated himself from the customer. Do you have a service department? If not, you'd better get one.

Again, it all depends what's in that contract. If there's no warranty to the 'supplier', there's no warranty to the homeowner, and you could absolutely tell them (nicely) to take their problem to the supplier, if that's who their contract was with.

 

[pv_n00b]

As far as NABCEP, it is not a scam. I have BSEE and MSEE and I learned a lot going through the training and studying for the Installation Professional certification. Also, it is not just study and pass exam, you need to document three installs where you were the lead, and meet some other requirements before being eligible to apply.

NABCEP is not what it used to be. They now accept for installation experience "lead installers, system designers, project managers, site managers, Foreman, Electricians, System Engineers, and quality assurance / commissioning agents." Someone can get a PV Installation Professional certification without ever turning a wench or getting on a roof. Back when they required the applicant to be a lead on projects it was better. But now they get more people taking the test, which means more money in their pockets.

 

[pv_n00b]

Licensing has little to do with it. It could be worse if you weren't licensed though.

State contractor licensing boards have pretty broad latitude over licensees and generally favor the public in a dispute. If a client files a dispute against your license and the state finds that you are not being a good licensee you may find that a 6-month license suspension is bad for your business cash flow.
Strangely enough, if you don't have a license you will likely face a fine but since you don't have a license to hold hostage the licensing board has little hold over you.

 

[jaggedben]

State contractor licensing boards have pretty broad latitude over licensees and generally favor the public in a dispute. If a client files a dispute against your license and the state finds that you are not being a good licensee you may find that a 6-month license suspension is bad for your business cash flow.
Strangely enough, if you don't have a license you will likely face a fine but since you don't have a license to hold hostage the licensing board has little hold over you.

Sure, I know that. (Trust me, I know.)
But if you fulfilled all your original obligations on a subcontract and the only thing wrong is something like a bad inverter supplied by the prime contractor, or electrical bill payback not being what the customer expected, the licensing board will probably decide they have bigger fish to fry.

I'm not arguing against prudence here. It's always prudent to exceed your legal obligations. I'm just saying that none of the speculation here about those legal obligations can substitute for reading the contract.

 

[ggunn]

Again, it all depends what's in that contract. If there's no warranty to the 'supplier', there's no warranty to the homeowner, and you could absolutely tell them (nicely) to take their problem to the supplier, if that's who their contract was with.

That's true as far as it goes, but if you are local to the customer and the supplier is remote and insulated, then you are the one whose reputation is on the line if/when something goes awry, and if you service a lot of customers something eventually will. If your response to an unhappy customer is to tell them to take it up with someone else with whom they have had no prior contact, chances are that you will have given them something else to be unhappy about.

 

[ggunn]

NABCEP is not what it used to be. They now accept for installation experience "lead installers, system designers, project managers, site managers, Foreman, Electricians, System Engineers, and quality assurance / commissioning agents." Someone can get a PV Installation Professional certification without ever turning a wench or getting on a roof. Back when they required the applicant to be a lead on projects it was better. But now they get more people taking the test, which means more money in their pockets.

OTOH, you won't pass that test without having a pretty broad and deep understanding of how PV works. I started in PV as an installer (at the age of 59, I might add) and I think it's a good idea for a designer to have spent some time with boots on the roof, but it isn't necessary for someone who will be designing systems to have installation experience. NABCEP certification is not only for installers.

 

[pv_n00b]

OTOH, you won't pass that test without having a pretty broad and deep understanding of how PV works. I started in PV as an installer (at the age of 59, I might add) and I think it's a good idea for a designer to have spent some time with boots on the roof, but it isn't necessary for someone who will be designing systems to have installation experience. NABCEP certification is not only for installers.

The PV Installation Professional certification is for installers, it's in the name ggunn. They have a PV Designer certification for designers, and no wrench is required. The thing is, in the beginning, the NABCEP PV Installer certification was not just a class and a test that someone could take. The applicant had to be a lead on PV installations and had to have done several installations and have someone vouch for that. Typically that required being in the field for a few years before someone reached the level where they were the lead on jobs.
That is what made it different from someone who took a Boots on the Roof class and passed a test. I was fairly involved in the sausage grinding at NABCEP up to the point where Ezra Auerbach left the ED position. It went downhill under the new leadership and was much less interesting.