Wages

[bikeindy]

For whatever reason the employee is in this situation, financing the employee's car through the boss drastically changes the employer/employee relationship. It puts the employee in a position where he is now beholden to the boss. The employee has no control over his own future, without having to also consider the transportation.

What you're doing is no different that what they used to call company stores. Where employees weren't paid in cash, but rather credit to shop at the company owned grocery, and live in the company provided housing. That lunacy was eradicated decades ago, and here you go not only re-promoting the idea, but also patting yourself on the back for you ingenuity.

Bravo, you just took the labor movement back 75 years. What's worse, you've actually convinced yourself, and are attempting to convince me that this is a better way. You don't know your history.



No, it's about self respect. Money is a big part of that. Not owing your boss anything at the end of the day is another.

You make me laugh. I once had a boss who would let us buy tools on his accounts and pay it back slowly over time with no interest I aquired a lot of tools that way. Getting a car that way is also a nice perk. How many people do you hear that say they wish they were paid more but the bennies are nice so they stay at a particular company. all these things go to what you are paid in the end. Yeah now we don't have company housing and company stores in the states we have section 8 and food stamps. Please so much has changed, right.

By the way at the end of the day you owe your boss a lot more than you will ever know.

 

[romexking]

It's not us against them, any more than the relationship between a customer and contractor is us against them.



The goal is the same goal of every employee who has worked for any company.



Unless the company and the employee share a joint checking account, the goal is not common.

I don't have an adversarial relationship with my customers as most of your posts would indicate is your relationship with all employer is.

are you saying that everyone has the same goals in life? What is your MAIN goal in life? It's not always about money for everyone.

Your one dimensional view on all employee/employer matter really does a disservice to your union cause.

Keep this in mind...I've been an employee, and now as a contractor I can say that I don't need people with your attitude and mind set. I can make money without any employees, but can you get a paycheck without a contractor? Oh yeah, non union side work. By the way, what benefits do you pay your side work helpers? Do you contribute to their H&W or pension? If not, what makes you any different than the many contractors on this site that you bash except that you probably don't pay employment taxes or workers comp?

 

[hardworkingstiff]

I don't have an adversarial relationship with my customers as most of your posts would indicate is your relationship with all employer is.

are you saying that everyone has the same goals in life? What is your MAIN goal in life? It's not always about money for everyone.

Your one dimensional view on all employee/employer matter really does a disservice to your union cause.

Keep this in mind...I've been an employee, and now as a contractor I can say that I don't need people with your attitude and mind set. I can make money without any employees, but can you get a paycheck without a contractor? Oh yeah, non union side work. By the way, what benefits do you pay your side work helpers? Do you contribute to their H&W or pension? If not, what makes you any different than the many contractors on this site that you bash except that you probably don't pay employment taxes or workers comp?

OUCH, but true.

 

[emahler]

romex....having traveled down this particular path with lawnguy, i'll take the liberty to answer for him

(in my best lawnguy voice)contractors don't do anything in particular....the work will be there whether you are or are not. you are simply the madam, and we are the workers. if you aren't here, someone else will take your place, and i'll just work for them...(end lawnguy voice)


so, as you see, he doesn't need you either...

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

You make me laugh. I once had a boss who would let us buy tools on his accounts and pay it back slowly over time with no interest I aquired a lot of tools that way.

I had no need to ask my boss to finance my tools. Financing (even at 0%) the basic necessities of plying your trade just shows how little you're paying. Or perhaps, you demand too large a compliment of tools. Exactly how many tools were you required to supply?

Getting a car that way is also a nice perk.

A nicer "perk" is having the money to finance your own car. The "perk" your referring to was simply using your good credit to save your employee from an almost usury interest rate. He must be some winner. I'm assuming that the vehicle IS titled to him, and it becomes his after the last payment, correct? (Why do I think I'm assuming too much?)

I just bought a new truck. 0% interest. But that's because I pay my bills, because I CAN pay my bills.

How many people do you hear that say they wish they were paid more but the bennies are nice so they stay at a particular company.

Christ, even I say that!

all these things go to what you are paid in the end. Yeah now we don't have company housing and company stores in the states we have section 8 and food stamps. Please so much has changed, right.

By the way at the end of the day you owe your boss a lot more than you will ever know.

Sorry man, but you are incorrect. At the end of the day, I own nothing to my boss, my shop, and could quite possibly be working for someone else tomorrow at 7am.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I don't have an adversarial relationship with my customers as most of your posts would indicate is your relationship with all employer is.

My relationship is not adversarial, it's simply black and white. In fact, my relationship is easier on both parties. There's no wiggle room. Everyone knows the boundaries and where the lines are drawn. I work x hours, you pay x hours. I supply these tools, you supply everything else. This is the hourly rate of pay and benefits, period.

Either the employer and employee meet their end of the bargian or the relationship is over. There are no sudden changes in the rules. No "from now on, I'm holding back 2 weeks pay instead of one or, from now on, employees are to provide their own power tools, or, from now on, employees are to show up 1/2 hour early and work for free because I don't think I should have to pay for unproductive shop time despite the fact that it is necessary to run my business..."

The issue I think that troubles you here is that you cannot fathom an employer/employee relationship where the employee has any real say-so , or the employer doesn't get to make any rule he can dream up because it's "his" business.

When push comes to shove, it all boils down to the almighty dollar. Nobody's out there contracting or working for a contractor for the fun of it. Neither you nor your employees are an an altruistic crusade to just go out every day and do good electrical work for the glory of it. The contractor's goal is to sell his services for as much as possible and keep expenses as little as possible. And an employees goal is to work for the highest possible wage. Ever have an employee ask for a reduction? I didn't think so.

are you saying that everyone has the same goals in life? What is your MAIN goal in life? It's not always about money for everyone.

Of course not. But nobodys goal is to work for less. Nobodys goal is to starve to death.

Your one dimensional view on all employee/employer matter really does a disservice to your union cause.

Really? I don't think promoting fair compensation for employees and empowering them to seek a position where they do not have to beg for a reasonable quality of life is a one dimensional view. I know it's not the view that some employers like. And I know that for some, any point of view that doesn't put the companys profits before anything else is frowned upon.

In basic terms, what you're saying is "agree with me or we're all doomed to failure." That's just not true. If you fail, another will take your place. That doesn't mean I wish to see you fail, but your success should not depend on manipulation.

Keep this in mind...I've been an employee, and now as a contractor I can say that I don't need people with your attitude and mind set. I can make money without any employees, but can you get a paycheck without a contractor?

With or without sidework, I can get a paycheck without a contractor. If every contractor packed it in tomorrow there would still be electrical work. You didn't invent it. You don't have a patent on it.

What has occured over the years is the sheer quantity of contractors has risen to such a degree that you're no longer competing with each other on management skills, you're forcing your employees to compete against other employees in a race to the bottom.

Oh yeah, non union side work. By the way, what benefits do you pay your side work helpers? Do you contribute to their H&W or pension? If not, what makes you any different than the many contractors on this site that you bash except that you probably don't pay employment taxes or workers comp?

I do not hire employees, so that argument is moot.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

romex....having traveled down this particular path with lawnguy, i'll take the liberty to answer for him

(in my best lawnguy voice)contractors don't do anything in particular....the work will be there whether you are or are not. you are simply the madam, and we are the workers. if you aren't here, someone else will take your place, and i'll just work for them...(end lawnguy voice)


so, as you see, he doesn't need you either...

You tell me what happens when a new shopping center goes up in town. Another pizza place, another stationary store, another pet shop, another dry cleaner, another bank branch... and in the end not a single employee in that or any other local shopping center gets a raise. What happens is another group of small business owners peels away at the existing market share, forcing the existing business's to cut their hours or expenses or inventory, and another reason is born for every employer to tell each employee that in the face of this new threat, there'll be no wage increases this year, either.

Can anyone here explain why so many electricians these days are opening shops, even small 1-2 man shops? My theory is the reason is obvious - contractors have driven their employees to go it alone because the wages they're paying are not enough for the effort their employees have to make and are driving them to become competitors, whether they want to or not.

Back when I turned out (of High School) an electrician (working for a contractor) did very well, union or nonunion. Today, some 2 decades plus later, the wage paid (nonunion) to electricians here is STILL THE SAME despite the increase in housing costs 600%, utility costs 100%, taxes 200%.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Back when I turned out (of High School) an electrician (working for a contractor) did very well, union or nonunion. Today, some 2 decades plus later, the wage paid (nonunion) to electricians here is STILL THE SAME despite the increase in housing costs 600%, utility costs 100%, taxes 200%.

Very true, but it is not isolated to electrical work.

 

[bikeindy]

I had no need to ask my boss to finance my tools. Financing (even at 0%) the basic necessities of plying your trade just shows how little you're paying. Or perhaps, you demand too large a compliment of tools. Exactly how many tools were you required to supply?

I only needed to supply my hand tools and for most guys that was enough. I had a want for more than just what was needed. There are a lot of nice tools out there and sometimes forking out $500 + for a tool is not that easy but if you can get it with a little out of your check each week it is nice.

Look I am not going to argue with you because some of what you say makes sence.

I don't even have the title if you are wondering. Sometimes people go through toug times in life make bad choices get devorced I don't see how helping them is a bad thing.

Sorry man, but you are incorrect. At the end of the day, I own nothing to my boss, my shop, and could quite possibly be working for someone else tomorrow at 7am

Good for you and I am sure your boss could handle things fine with out you, It might take some time to replace you but you would still owe your new boss what you owed your old boss. At the end of the day they have employed you and they don't have to. I am sure you are not too difficult to replace.

 

[DAWGS]

The money you just spent giving out raises is only a short term solution. What will happen when another contractor will pay them a little more? You will be giving out more raises. That could be a never ending cycle. As previously stated, money may be the only motivator for some employees, but not everyone wants just more money. You must ask them what are their goals in life, and then help them achieve them if you can. Have them write their top 3 goals in life down on paper, and help them devise a way to reach those goals. Perhaps the young guy wants to by a house, instead of giving a raise in his check, have him open a direct deposit account and divert that raise into that account. He'll be less likely to use it for frivolous stuff, and it will start building quickly. Do you think your interest in helping him buy a house will instill loyalty? Probably more that just a $1.50 in his check that he will use to buy beer and fast food.

Ask them, then help them.

Good for them if they can get more. My modow is make it so they can't afford to leave. I don't care what their goals are, I'm their employeer not their father its not my place to tell them how to handle their money. If they choose to buy beer and fast food with their raise thats fine, I know they will show up the next morning at my job sites.

 

[realolman]

Look I am not going to argue with you because some of what you say makes sence

I think there's much more than some of what LG Sparky's saying that makes sense. I think very much, if not all of it, makes sense.

Good for you and I am sure your boss could handle things fine with out you, It might take some time to replace you but you would still owe your new boss what you owed your old boss. At the end of the day they have employed you and they don't have to. I am sure you are not too difficult to replace

Exactly what is it that is owed?

I think I get the short end of the stick every day I go to work. The only thing that keeps me going back is the lousy job market, and some very few benefits I have accrued over very many years of getting the short end. They blackmail you every day with the loss of your job unless you accept the short end of every encounter, every day. And I guess you're supposed to smile and thank them for it..

I'd be thrilled with some honesty.... I think Lawn Guy has just provided some to anyone who is truly open minded enough to hear it.

The issue I think that troubles you here is that you cannot fathom an employer/employee relationship where the employee has any real say-so , or the employer doesn't get to make any rule he can dream up .

I have taken the liberty of cutting off the end of LawnGuy Sparky's quote because I think the same mentality applies with corporate managers and it ain't "their business." can't fathom it... it doesn't register. They have been annointed by God somehow as a superior life form to you.

 

[bikeindy]

I think there's much more than some of what LG Sparky's saying that makes sense. I think very much, if not all of it, makes sense.




Exactly what is it that is owed?

I think I get the short end of the stick every day I go to work. The only thing that keeps me going back is the lousy job market, and some very few benefits I have accrued over very many years of getting the short end. They blackmail you every day with the loss of your job unless you accept the short end of every encounter, every day. And I guess you're supposed to smile and thank them for it..

I'd be thrilled with some honesty.

I used to work with guys like you and LGS. And always complaining and crying about how bad it is and if this or if that blah blah blah.... Stop your crying already and stand up and do something about it. You probably get the short end of the stick because that is all your worth. I have had three cry babies work for me, when I couldn't take their crying anymore I sent them to the unemployment office. I hear they don't mind baby sitting down there.

 

[bikeindy]

The issue I think that troubles you here is that you cannot fathom an employer/employee relationship where the employee has any real say-so , or the employer doesn't get to make any rule he can dream up because it's "his" business.

When push comes to shove, it all boils down to the almighty dollar. Nobody's out there contracting or working for a contractor for the fun of it. Neither you nor your employees are an an altruistic crusade to just go out every day and do good electrical work for the glory of it. The contractor's goal is to sell his services for as much as possible and keep expenses as little as possible. And an employees goal is to work for the highest possible wage. Ever have an employee ask for a reduction? I didn't think so.

Your mind is fried dude. I am in business because I have fun at it and we do go out and do good sorry great electrical work for the "glory" of it. We love what we do and thats why we do it. An employees goal should be to do the best job he can every day every hour he is at work, just because your best today may not be what your best is on average doesn't mean you shouldn't strive for perfection. Maybe you just hope for the day the Govenment takes over everything and makes it all fair and equal.

 

[bikeindy]

You tell me what happens when a new shopping center goes up in town. Another pizza place, another stationary store, another pet shop, another dry cleaner, another bank branch...

Apparently EC's GC's and all the others associated with it get Paid.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I only needed to supply my hand tools and for most guys that was enough. I had a want for more than just what was needed. There are a lot of nice tools out there and sometimes forking out $500 + for a tool is not that easy but if you can get it with a little out of your check each week it is nice.

I'm sure it is, but why do you think you felt the need to want to supply more? $500.00 for A tool? What were you supplying, hydraulic benders? Threading machines?

Look I am not going to argue with you because some of what you say makes sence.

I'm not arguing, this is a discussion. A debate at best.

I don't even have the title if you are wondering. Sometimes people go through toug times in life make bad choices get devorced I don't see how helping them is a bad thing.

Not a bad thing to help someone out in a particular circumstance. Classifying that help as a benefit worth more than any paycheck could provide is pushing it out of the realm of what it really is.

Good for you and I am sure your boss could handle things fine with out you, It might take some time to replace you but you would still owe your new boss what you owed your old boss.

Nothing more than a day's work for a days pay.

At the end of the day they have employed you and they don't have to. I am sure you are not too difficult to replace.

Everyone is replaceable. That doesn't make them worthless. And that doesn't mean they should wake up every day and just be thankful they have a job.

 

[bikeindy]

I'm sure it is, but why do you think you felt the need to want to supply more? $500.00 for A tool? What were you supplying, hydraulic benders? Threading machines?

Who said I was supplying it? I was buying tools for me. Did I use some of them to make me more effecient than others around me? Yep, and I was paid more because of it. The rest I used for myself. I still have most of them. Anything from cordless drills to hydraulic knockout kits to roto hammer drills and bits.

 

[realolman]

I used to work with guys like you and LGS. And always complaining and crying about how bad it is and if this or if that blah blah blah.... Stop your crying already and stand up and do something about it. You probably get the short end of the stick because that is all your worth. I have had three cry babies work for me, when I couldn't take their crying anymore I sent them to the unemployment office. I hear they don't mind baby sitting down there.

I'm no crybaby.. I know what I'm doing and do it well.

If you can't understand the message, always attack the messenger.

And anytime you have the chance to exercise a little leverage over some one... don't fail to take advantage of it.

 

[emahler]

I'm no crybaby.. I know what I'm doing and do it well.

If you can't understand the message, always attack the messenger.

And anytime you have the chance to exercise a little leverage over some one... don't fail to take advantage of it.

there are some great companies out there to work for...you are free to get hired by them...you appear to hate your current situation...make a change....

 

[khixxx]

I don't roll out of bed for anything less than $30/hr. I am a road tech. I guess your wages would be set by how bad you need someone and how bad someone needs you. best of luck.

 

[tmbrk]

There are unscrupulous employers out there who would like nothing better than to take advantage of their employees. I have worked for both the good and the bad. I moved around between employers until I felt comfortable where I was. And it wasn't necessarily the place that paid the highest. When I found that perfect place, I liked the atmosphere and the general feeling that we were doing great work. I also appreciated the perks that were offered. (Good benefits and stuff like taking us all on snowmobile trips in the winter, put us up in a nice place and would even offer to lend a sled to the guys that didn't have them.)

I liked the fact that if I worked harder than the next guy I would be rewarded for it. Nothing is worse for morale than to see the guy next to you slacking off everyday yet making the same wages and benefits as you.

I went out on my own because I wanted to push myself even further.

Not everyone thinks the same.