wall space ?

[augie47]

Under 210.52(A)(2) would the attached area (living room bookcase) count as wall spce ?

View attachment 3988

 

[Buck Parrish]

I say yes...it's included.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

No , i think it starts a new wall at each side. I do think it would be smart to have it because i can easily see it as geting used for a lamp or something. I would suggest a receptacle just to the right of it. This is up to your call as an inspector. Is it similar ?

 

[M. D.]

I'd treat it just like the fireplace,..... I kinda like what Washington did

052(A)(2) Dwelling unit receptacle outlets.

(6) For the purpose of NEC 210.52 (A)(2)(1), "similar openings" include the following configurations that are a permanent part of the dwelling configuration or finish:

(a) Window seating; and

(b) Bookcases or cabinets that extend from the floor to a level at least 1.7 meters (five (5) feet six (6) inches) above the floor.

Any outlets eliminated by such window seating, bookcases, or cabinets must be installed elsewhere within the room.

 

[PetrosA]

Regardless of what the NEC says, I'd recommend to my customers that they put an outlet there. More often than not, they'll want to set their cable box or other video stuff there for a TV over the mantle. I usually try to locate it in the side of the fireplace (depending on whether or not it's brick) either on the bottom shelf or in the cabinet. A grommeted hole can always be added if needed for cords.

 

[electricmanscott]

I vote negative.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

The bookshelf/bookcase is a piece of built-in furniture, and is not wall space. The bookcase/ bookshelf in not required to have receptacle(s) installed within the space it takes up. The nearest wall space would be 6ft from the edge of the cabinet.

 

[C3PO]

I vote yes it should be counted as wall space.


Let me pose a question, what if the whole room was covered with shelves like that would that mean that there would not be any receptacles required in the entire room??

 

[benaround]

You just have to love the way M.D. has back-up for every answer.

 

[buldogg]

I wouldn't count it as wall space

 

[hurk27]

I would think if you can count a book case as wall space then in every kitchen all cabinets will have to have wall space receptacles in the doors:roll:

to me they are the same as a cabinet? or they are a cabinet!

 

[electricmanscott]

I would think if you can count a book case as wall space then in every kitchen all cabinets will have to have wall space receptacles in the doors:roll:

to me they are the same as a cabinet? or they are a cabinet!

Stop using common sense. There is no place for that in an NEC argument.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Under 210.52(A)(2) would the attached area (living room bookcase) count as wall space ?

I would count it and I know the inspectors around here require it to be counted. This has come up before with the same questions-- What if the entire room were covered in cabinets. I guess according to some of you no outlets are required in the room.

 

[M. D.]

I would think if you can count a book case as wall space then in every kitchen all cabinets will have to have wall space receptacles in the doors:roll:.........

They appearently will in 2011 unless they change some language :roll:

2-228 Log #4791 NEC-P02 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(210.52(A))
_______________________________________________________________
TCC Action:
It was the action of the Technical Correlating Committee that
this action be rewritten to comply with the NEC Style Manual.
The panel action did not include a title for the new subdivision (4).
This proposal will be considered by the panel as a public comment.

Submitter:
Michael Dempsey, Municipal Code Inspections
Recommendation: Revise text as follows:
Receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general
provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3) and shall be in addition to
210.52(C).

Substantiation:
Required countertop receptacles cannot be used to comply
with wall space requirements, an example is a 3 ft wall space between the end
of a counter and a door, that wall space needs a receptacle and cannot use a
countertop receptacle to comply.

Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle

Add a new item (4) to 210.52(A) to read as follows:
(4) Receptacles installed for countertop surfaces as specified in 210.52(C)
shall not be considered as the receptacles required by 210.52(A).
Panel Statement: The panel has accepted the concept and added a new item
(4) to specifically note that countertop receptacles are not permitted to be
counted as meeting the surfaces as provisions of 210.52(A).

Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12

Comment on Affirmative:
ORLOWSKI, S.: Need to revise 210.52(A)(2)(1) as follows.
Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured
around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces,
?fixed cabinets,? and similar openings.
Without this text the ?unbroken floor line? would include the floor line in front
of the kitchen cabinets.

 

[M. D.]

At least currently the CMP does not consider the kitchen cabinets as wall space .
As far as Gus's picture ,..the bottom is a cabinet if they don't recognize a cabinet in the kitchen as wall space why would they in this room?

These are both from the 2010 rop I'm not sure what about the proposed change above makes them think a change is needed to exclude the cabinets???? If the current wording does below ?? What am I missing

Had they always viewed that as a wall space covered by the counter top requirement ? ...My guess is they did.

2-234 Log #2782 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.52(A)(2)(1))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Charles E. Beck, Affiliated Engineers NW, Inc.

Recommendation: Revise text as follows:

(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured
around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by permanently installed
kitchen cabinets or by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings.
Substantiation: As written, if a kitchen has a wall that is partially, but not
completely, fitted with cabinets, and if you start measuring the open wall space
in order to lay out the wall space receptacles, you will measure along the floor
line, come to the cabinet base, measure around the corner to the front of the
cabinet, continue measuring along the front of the base cabinet until you come
to its other edge, measure around the corner to the back of the cabinet, and
continue the measurement along the remaining floor line. This puts the “wall
space” receptacle requirements of 210.52(A)(1) at odds with the “wall counter
spaces” receptacle requirements of 210.52(C)(1). The lines at which the sides
and the front of a kitchen cabinet meet the floor should not be considered “wall
spaces,” in the context of 210.52(A)(1). The present wording allows them to be
considered wall spaces. The proposed wording still treats a permanent wall-to-
wall bookcase as “wall space.”

Panel Meeting Action: Reject

Panel Statement: The kitchen cabinets are not wall space under the rule as
stated in the current code.

Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12

 

[elohr46]

I vote yes it should be counted as wall space.


Let me pose a question, what if the whole room was covered with shelves like that would that mean that there would not be any receptacles required in the entire room??

You just described a closet/storage space, no recept. needed.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Wow things do change, last time this question came up, I was one of the only ones that said that it didn't require a recept. everyone else was jumping up and down claiming it was wall space.

 

[charlie b]

Let me pose a question, what if the whole room was covered with shelves like that would that mean that there would not be any receptacles required in the entire room??

Yes. Next question please.

What if the entire room were covered in cabinets. I guess according to some of you no outlets are required in the room.

Count me in.

 

[K8MHZ]

I vote no, since doors aren't walls and there are doors, permanently installed, that extend to the floor.

 

[TobyD]

In all cases a recpt.would be nice to have in the USABLE wall space.I would say that in this case a recpt .should be installed.But,not required.