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Wasting thousands of tax payer dollars, one Massachusetts public school has not turned off the lights for over a year and a half

Merry Christmas
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rc/retired

Senior Member
Location
Bellvue, Colorado
Occupation
Master Electrician/Inspector retired
What are "ignition points"? :D

Just kidding; I am old enough to have replaced many points, plugs, and condensers in my day. I have gapped points with a paper matchbook cover in the middle of the night on the side of the highway in a rainstorm while my buddy held the flashlight and my beer.
Had to be a Ford. I've set points on my '70 Ford LTD many times with a match book cover.

Ron
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Had to be a Ford. I've set points on my '70 Ford LTD many times with a match book cover.

Ron
Yep. It was a 1971 (or so) Ford station wagon that belonged to my buddy (the one holding my beer and the flashlight). We were returning to Lake Charles, LA, with a carload of hippies after a concert in Houston when the engine suddenly died somewhere out west of Beaumont. The screw holding the points had vibrated loose and closed the points. I was a hero that night.
 

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
It seems to be more common now that people are relying only on wireless controls, many of them Internet based.

I rewired a house about 3 years ago, and the owner told me he didn't want any switches. He was going to have all of his lighting controlled by Amazon Alexa through his tablet.

He didn't like my answer - sorry, bro. No can do
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
It seems to be more common now that people are relying only on wireless controls, many of them Internet based.

I rewired a house about 3 years ago, and the owner told me he didn't want any switches. He was going to have all of his lighting controlled by Amazon Alexa through his tablet.

He didn't like my answer - sorry, bro. No can do
That would seem to have been a huge PIA once completed. pop into another room without a tablet and there is no way to turn them on…
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
In linking 2 threads together This post was in the other thread apparently earlier than this thread was started. I will post it here

@GoldDigger

Golddigger----In this case, the installing company apparently went through a couple of changes of ownership and the original manufacturer of the system went out of business.
Sometimes "state of the art" systems come from companies that do not have a sustainable business model.
The school district did not initially want to spend the money to completely rewire the school with a new control system.
It appears that somebody finally came up with a way of reparing the original system with some changes.

A company I once worked for needed a replacement for its ancient Xerox machine. The office supply company pushed a new copier with a wide range of flexible features that looked ideal for us, from a Korean startup company. We were a little nervous when we saw the serial number of 00000006.
The supplier was on site every few weeks tweaking adjustments or replacing parts. After 6 months we got a repair tech who had not visited us before. His first comment was "Who sold you this piece of crap anyway?" :)
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
It seems to be more common now that people are relying only on wireless controls, many of them Internet based.

I rewired a house about 3 years ago, and the owner told me he didn't want any switches. He was going to have all of his lighting controlled by Amazon Alexa through his tablet.

He didn't like my answer - sorry, bro. No can do
Doing one right now, got a bank of Casseta switches in the laundry room. Inspector didn’t say a word about where the switches were!
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
But you just admitted they do draw more on startup than when running. So that makes my statement true. I did not say [whether] it was cost effective ...
In case you ain't been payin' attention, pretty much the entire focus of the discussion has been the cost of leaving contemporary lights on when they're not in use, not the starting surge current of long-obsolete technologies. Try to keep up.
all-this-contains-much-that-is-obviously-true-and-much-that-is-relevant-unfortunately-what-is-quote-1.jpg
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
The relevance to _modern_ lighting systems is that nuggets of truth misunderstood about obsolete technologies continue to influence modern decisions.

It is true that it was cheaper to leave some early fluorescent lamps on for some extended period of time rather than turn them off to save energy. This truth was not well understood at the time, and was more about lamp cost and life, not energy usage. But this knowledge, propagated through the ages, probably influenced the decision to leave the lights on at this school.

-Jon
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
The relevance to _modern_ lighting systems is that nuggets of truth misunderstood about obsolete technologies continue to influence modern decisions.

It is true that it was cheaper to leave some early fluorescent lamps on for some extended period of time rather than turn them off to save energy. This truth was not well understood at the time, and was more about lamp cost and life, not energy usage. But this knowledge, propagated through the ages, probably influenced the decision to leave the lights on at this school.

-Jon
I got the impression is was too difficult to turn off/on. Maybe it was cheaper to leave them vs paying to manually turn on in the morning and off at night.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
One switch was how we used to do lighting control. I remember an old Kmart we did service work on. The whole store, about 25,000 square feet, was on a time clock and a couple 400A lighting contactors about the same size as NEMA 7 motor starter. That time clock would click, the coils on those contactors would energize and there would boom like a cannon and echo like a train hitting a wall all through the mechanical room when the contacts closed. It was loud enough to scare the sugar out of your coffee if you weren't expecting it.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
With old florescent fixtures, that would be true to an extent, energy restarting the arc would use substantial power on startup, so turning off and on frequently in short periods of time would use more energy than leaving the fixtures on.
I was taught that the more serious problem was the cost of reduction in the life of the fixture, particularly the tubes since starting a cold tube was a particularly stressful operation.
The life reduction was even more noticeable for incandescent bulbs because of the effects of cold inrush on the filaments.
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
I was taught that the more serious problem was the cost of reduction in the life of the fixture, particularly the tubes ...
That must have been a long time ago, back when electricity was too cheap to meter.
Or more likely, when people just didn't care about conservation.

I wonder if that wasn't more about the cost of labor to replaces tubes. I remember standard 48-inch tubes selling for about a dollar each, and institutions just replacing every tube en masse every year. (and many, many basements & garages taking advantage of all those free, surplus, once-used tubes)
 
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gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I was taught that the more serious problem was the cost of reduction in the life of the fixture, particularly the tubes since starting a cold tube was a particularly stressful operation.
The life reduction was even more noticeable for incandescent bulbs because of the effects of cold inrush on the filaments.
Yes, it does reduce the life of the tube, by approximately 30% IIRC. However. You still come out ahead if you run them 12 hours on, 12 hours off.
Fortunately I do not think there are similar startup penalties for LEDs.
 
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GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Yes, it does reduce the life of the tube, by approximately 30% IIRC. However. You still come out ahead if you run them 12 hours on, 12 hours off.
I can see the economics of 12 on/12 off versus 24 hours on. I was thinking mainly of turning a light on when you enter a room and off each time you leave it. What happens with occupancy sensors depends on the details of a particular typical 24 hour cycle.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
... being a government project though, I suspect it cost three times as much as would to just buy off the shelf and replace them more often.
The post office paid $1.1 billion for 99,150 first-generation Long-Life Vehicles during their 1987-1994 production run, many of which are still in service. $11,094 each, including one-time design, development & tooling costs. Being purpose-built vehicles, they incorporated features not readily available in off-the-shelf models, including a rust-free aluminum body, right-hand drive, and an unusually tight turning radius.
(in fairness, it wasn't all unicorns and rainbows; they ended up with a gas hog ill-suited for their frequent stop & go operations)

In 2008, they purchased a number of off-the-shelf of Dodge Grand Caravan and Chevrolet Uplander minivans. I'm sure their operational experience factored into their decision to launch a second-generation Long-Life Vehicle program.

The 2021 2G LLV contract seems to be up to $6 billion for 165,000 of the vehicles over 10 years. $36,363 each, including (?) an initial $482,000 for design, development, and tooling.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
The post office paid $1.1 billion for 99,150 first-generation Long-Life Vehicles during their 1987-1994 production run, many of which are still in service. $11,094 each, including one-time design, development & tooling costs. Being purpose-built vehicles, they incorporated features not readily available in off-the-shelf models, including a rust-free aluminum body, right-hand drive, and an unusually tight turning radius.
(in fairness, it wasn't all unicorns and rainbows; they ended up with a gas hog ill-suited for their frequent stop & go operations)

In 2008, they purchased a number of off-the-shelf of Dodge Grand Caravan and Chevrolet Uplander minivans. I'm sure their operational experience factored into their decision to launch a second-generation Long-Life Vehicle program.

The 2021 2G LLV contract seems to be up to $6 billion for 165,000 of the vehicles over 10 years. $36,363 each, including (?) an initial $482,000 for design, development, and tooling.
I recall some controversy that Oshkosh didn't actually have a vehicle prototype and fudged it to get the contract.

P. S.
Found something on that.

 
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