Water line bonding vs GEC

[LarryFine]

Check 210.53(D)(2) it requires a rod suppliment comply with 210.53(A)(2) that requires a rod be supplimented by another electrode (that is not a water pipe). It would be easier if they just said 2 rods, when using a rod as suppliment. Proof of 10 ft of pipe made no difference.

I meant here, locally, on two different jobs of mine, by two different inspectors.

 

[Fred B]

250, not 210. But yes.
Should they delete the bit about 25ohms and just always require two rods? Wouldn't make a difference to me practically, but I guess in principle I'd like only one rod to be required.

oops yes 250

 

[Fred B]

250, not 210. But yes.
Should they delete the bit about 25ohms and just always require two rods? Wouldn't make a difference to me practically, but I guess in principle I'd like only one rod to be required.

for years locally they did only ask for one, don't know if it was to code or just common practice.
I think reasoning is many municipalities are going with plastic and when they change noone is updating the GES so they are requiring by default, and making you add 2 rods if no other electrode other than the water pipe.

 

[Rob442]

So, back to the first question, if it is metallic in contact with the earth for 10 feet or more, then you have to install a GEC to it. Or more accurately, the electrician whose license was used to build the house is obligated to install it to correct an illegal

So 250.50 requires that if it’s metallic and in contact with the ground for at least 10ft then it shall be a part of the grounding electrode system and if it’s proven that there is not a continuous run for at least 10ft then it still has to be bonded to the GES but it doesn’t have to be within the first 5ft

 

[LarryFine]

We're also usually allowed to have only one rod for a sub-panel in a shed, etc.

 

[kwired]

So, back to the first question, if it is metallic in contact with the earth for 10 feet or more, then you have to install a GEC to it. Or more accurately, the electrician whose license was used to build the house is obligated to install it to correct an illegal installation.

He said house was built in mid 1970's. You may have to go to a cemetery to find that person and you will need to be pretty good talker to convince him to come fix it. If you are lucky enough to get someone that will talk back they have likely already retired.

 

[kwired]

If the water pipe is a grounding electrode you must connect to it within the 1st 5 ft of the pipe entering the building.
The conductor can originate at any point from the service point, the meter socket or the service panel or, as jaggedben points out, from another electrode provided the conductor to the other electrode is large enough

Can be connected anywhere from service disconnect to the service drop or lateral. Lateral ends in a meter socket often but with overhead services you could connect the GEC to the where the service drop connects to the service entrance conductors. Was done that way a lot around here years ago, particularly on outbuildings on farms.

 

[kwired]

for years locally they did only ask for one, don't know if it was to code or just common practice.
I think reasoning is many municipalities are going with plastic and when they change noone is updating the GES so they are requiring by default, and making you add 2 rods if no other electrode other than the water pipe.

NEC changed wording in maybe about 2011 or 2014 edition. Intent was always the same they just found out people were not normally checking to see if a single rod measured 25 ohms or less. The way it was worded if the inspector had no means to test the rod there wasn't much he could do about it, so a single rod got installed a lot. The way it is worded now the inspector can ask the installer to prove it is 25 ohms or less if there is only a single rod. Most people don't have the means to test and is simple, easier, less costly to just drive two rods and move on.

 

[kwired]

I don’t do a lot of residential work and am looking into the grounding electrodes at my house. It was built in the mid 70s and has an original 200 amp service which I was looking into updating and noticed there is no bond on the waterline anywhere. My question is that if you have an adequate grounding electrode system ( 1 or 2 ground rods) would a metallic water line be considered a grounding electrode and have to be connected within the first 5 ft of entry or would it need to just be bonded anywhere for fault clearing? I understand why there’s a 5ft rule but it’s just got me curious

Back then and until about mid 1990's it was acceptable to land GEC to a metal water pipe on any convenient location on the piping. With non metallic piping becoming more popular by the 90's they changed the rule to within 5 feet or entry for a qualifying underground pipe. You always needed bonding jumper around things like water meters or other items that may be frequently opened or naturally were isolating in nature.

You still can bond interior piping to any convenient location - say you had non metallic for incoming but have metallic piping through the house.

 

[infinity]

Back then and until about mid 1990's it was acceptable to land GEC to a metal water pipe on any convenient location on the piping.

I don't have my old code books in front of me but prior to the 5' rule wasn't the requirement to connect the GEC to the street side of the water meter which typically is less than 5'?

 

[augie47]

I drop back to Post 18 by jaggedben. Where does the Code specifically say the connection to the water line for the grounding electrode conductor must be within the 1st 5 ft. ??
I've always enforced that as it was what I was taught but I can't put my finger on the requirement.
I see where beyond 5 ft that water pipe can not be used to bond to other electrodes but can't find the 5 ft rule for using it as an electrode.

 

[Rob442]

Back then and until about mid 1990's it was acceptable to land GEC to a metal water pipe on any convenient location on the piping. With non metallic piping becoming more popular by the 90's they changed the rule to within 5 feet or entry for a qualifying underground pipe. You always needed bonding jumper around things like water meters or other items that may be frequently opened or naturally were isolating in nature.

You still can bond interior piping to any convenient location - say you had non metallic for incoming but have metallic piping through the house.

Thanks for the reply. I’m not sure why it was never bonded to begin with. Being original from 1976 and still has the original inspection passed sticker. Curious if it was mandatory back then

 

[ptonsparky]

Thanks for the reply. I’m not sure why it was never bonded to begin with. Being original from 1976 and still has the original inspection passed sticker. Curious if it was mandatory back then

I can remember that far back. It should have been bonded somewhere.

 

[LarryFine]

I can remember that far back. It should have been bonded somewhere.

Absolutely. I was a seasoned helper by then.

 

[Fred B]

NEC changed wording in maybe about 2011 or 2014 edition. Intent was always the same they just found out people were not normally checking to see if a single rod measured 25 ohms or less. The way it was worded if the inspector had no means to test the rod there wasn't much he could do about it, so a single rod got installed a lot. The way it is worded now the inspector can ask the installer to prove it is 25 ohms or less if there is only a single rod. Most people don't have the means to test and is simple, easier, less costly to just drive two rods and move on.

Can drive a lot of extra ground rods for the $2000.00 ground earth resistance meter to prove 25ohms or less.

 

[Rob442]

I drop back to Post 18 by jaggedben. Where does the Code specifically say the connection to the water line for the grounding electrode conductor must be within the 1st 5 ft. ??
I've always enforced that as it was what I was taught but I can't put my finger on the requirement.
I see where beyond 5 ft that water pipe can not be used to bond to other electrodes but can't find the 5 ft rule for using it as an electrode.

I believe it’s 250.68(c)(1) although reading it the wording can be misleading

 

[kwired]

I don't have my old code books in front of me but prior to the 5' rule wasn't the requirement to connect the GEC to the street side of the water meter which typically is less than 5'?

IIRC that 5 foot thing came into play in 1996 NEC. I had been in the trade almost 10 years by then. I remember connecting to water piping at any convenient location on the piping. If there was a water meter you had to put a jumper around it, done many back then where we hit a pipe in close proximity to panel and then put jumper around water meter.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

IIRC that 5 foot thing came into play in 1996 NEC. I had been in the trade almost 10 years by then. I remember connecting to water piping at any convenient location on the piping. If there was a water meter you had to put a jumper around it, done many back then where we hit a pipe in close proximity to panel and then put jumper around water meter.

Apparently language was added in the 1993 code, but was not clear, so an additional change was made in the 96 code.

Proposal 5-200 for the 1996 code.
5-200- (250-81): Accept
SUBMITTER: William E Laldler, Hanover, MA
RECOMMENDATION: Revise the second sentence as follows:
"Interior metal water piping located more than 5 feet (1.52m) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a
the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the ~,rounding electrode system."
SUBSTANTIATION: This new requirement in the 1993 code is being interpreted differently by code users. The new words will
clarify the intent as I understand it from the 1993 TCR and TCD.
That is, that the portion of interior water piping systems beyond 5 ft. is not considered reliable because of potential changes to the water
system that could involve the use of PVC piping.
PANEL ACTION: Accept.
PANEL STATEMENT: For further information on grounding electrode conductor connections to the grounding electrode system, see the panel action and panel statement on Proposal 5-190.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 12
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 11
NOT RETURNED: Shift

 

[Strathead]

I believe it’s 250.68(c)(1) although reading it the wording can be misleading

That is the code section and as long as you pay attention to the punctuation it makes perfect sense.

 

[jaggedben]

I believe it’s 250.68(c)(1) although reading it the wording can be misleading

Yeah, that's the section. But it still says - or doesn't say - what I said in post #18.