What is wrong with you people??

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I find the whole thing hilarious..I have ask what we can do about stuff like this..maybe we can start putting in our input on these issues first and maybe the NEC can do a better job of letting us know what is happening..I think the time of legalized profiteering should be done..I think the substantiation is bogus and weak..But unless we have better knowledge of how it works and input nothing will ever change..the people with money and power will continue to drive the code the way they want..I have ordered some of the TR outlets did not ask price..I am going to install them in my dads and uncles houses, dad is 74 and my uncle is 70 my mom is dead but my aunt is 69 so I can see how easy it is for the elderly to operate..my daughter has five boys and will put them in her house as well..all at my cost nothing to them I am asking them to keep a log of some stuff anyone want to have some input on question we should be asking..It is time we start collecting data ours is way better then what the manufacture pays for..we work with the stuff everyday..we go in and repair after fires and the damage is done..I think it is time we drive our destiney..:grin: :D
 
My take is the NEC has crossed the line from public safety: to commercial/special interest and promotion.
 
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dereckbc said:
My take is the NEC has crossed the line from public safety: to commercial/special interest and promotion.
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Some of it certainly has, and we can debate which rules are manufacturer driven and which aren't. But the vast majority of the code is still the same basic rules that have been in there for decades.

I've "crossed the fence" from being a naysayer about the NEC to realizing that the rules that are in there are actually for our safety and will make us money.
 
dereckbc said:
My take is the NEC has crossed the line from public safety: to commercial/special interest and promotion.
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And I have to agree, not just for the conversation at hand.

Roger
 
dereckbc said:
My take is the NEC has crossed the line from public safety: to commercial/special interest and promotion.
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It certainly does appear that way. But suppose the products that are driving the changes actually do what they are advertised to do. Is this really a bad thing?

The reality is it's the "system" that is the problem.

I've said it before, the NFPA is more or less a jobs program. It's kind of it's own little eonomy, and it is strong. They are pretty much ammending the code on an ongoing basis. Then they adopt the code, print new materials, sell new materials (which tend to be rather pricey as books go), and the local governments then adopt the code and it becomes law. All of this, every three years. It's brilliant really.

Here in Mass you are required to take a code update class before you can renew your license. If they really cared about promoting continuing ed you would be required to take this class within say 6 months of the codes adoption so you are providing the (theoreticaly) safest possible installations. But this would really piss off the contnuing ed providers who make a good living running these classes right up until the next code cycle.

Bottom line, too many people making too much money on this "system". It's not going to change and I am going to do my best to get what I can out of it.
 
dereckbc said:
My take is the NEC has crossed the line from public safety: to commercial/special interest and promotion.
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I think a lot of the complaining was due to the fact that it was no secrete that the manufactures had their people pushing and sitting on the cmp's with their "data" to promote their product. If independent and non bias data showed the life safety advantage of a product then their would be (although some would never) greater acceptance.
When I wired my son and daughter-in-law's house she was following me around placing the child proof plug covers on as fast as I could trim them out. No one told her to and code did not mandate it, it was just good parenting.
 
i remember when they came out with gfic receptacles. my boss(who was not an electrician) came out to the job and about had a heart attack when he found out they cost $32.00 each !!! we were doing a ten story high rise condo ! he went to the general contractor and got an extra!! later on i found out he put in for every outside receptacle on all ten floors when all we needed was the ground floor outlets.. you know he never explained that to the general!!!?
 
charlie tuna said:
i remember when they came out with gfic receptacles. my boss(who was not an electrician) came out to the job and about had a heart attack when he found out they cost $32.00 each !!!
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I'm curious when that was.

P&S claims they invented the GFCI receptacle in 1971. $32 in todays money is...???? $100? $150?
 
Fear and consumption is what its all about. The marketers or the government do thier best to make us afraid of something, wether acne arc flash so that we will purchase something to aleviate that fear. Yes these rules do provide me with money making opportunities but I often find myself holding my nose while I do.:smile:
 
I just got a call from the Obama campaign. I should have asked what Baracks position on TR receptacles and AFCIs is and what he is going to do about the oppression of the American people by the hand of the NEC. :grin:
 
electricmanscott said:
I think arc flash, being a real and deadly hazard, is probably not the best example in this case.
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Maybe not. But riding my Harley is a lot more dangerous and I don't have to wear a helmet to do it. Life has some risks and niether the government nor the NEC can protect me from all of them. I think the most important rules of the NEC, the ones that realy save life and property were all written a long time ago.:smile:
 
Well I certainly did not mean to offend anybody. So if I did please accept my apology, it was just my opinion based on observation.

Now just out of curiosity folks let me ask this question to some of the older, err experienced sparky’s out there. Let’s imagine we have two identical 2000/ft2 homes being built. One we build to current code, and the other say to 1996 or 93 code. What is the cost difference? Don’t ask me for the answer, I don’t know. :confused:
 
brother said:
As someone said, special interest has taken over. Im curious, as to how many 'car accidents caused injuries/deaths in the past year, and should we 'ban' automobiles??
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Yeah in the US they cause about 40,000 deaths a year.

But maybe you have not noticed that for the last 40 years the Government has stepped in and forced the manufacturers to make safer cars.

No one is going to ban autos anytime soon just as no one is going to ban electricity but we can make an effort to make the use of either safer.

I do have an idea though, lets keep the discussion focused on the NEC / NFPA / etc. lets leave stairs, windows and automobiles out of the discussion as this is an NEC forum. :)


I have to ask this, and it is specifically about the TR rule.

Do any of you really see this as a windfall for the manufacturers?

I don't, the AFCIs, yeah maybe but the TR deal is not a big price increase from the standard outlets.
 
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brother said:
As someone said, special interest has taken over. Im curious, as to how many 'car accidents caused injuries/deaths in the past year, and should we 'ban' automobiles??
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Are you just ignoring all the regulations that have been forced upon the car makers over the years that you have to accept and pay for whether you like it or not? And the countless rules and regulations involved in having a drivers license and actually driving a vehicle on a public way? NOT a good example.

More importantly, nobody is saying ban electricity, the idea is to make it safer.

As Bob stated the TR receptacles are not a huge windfall for anyone. They were making them already anyway.


The bottom line I think is that "people" just don't kile to be told what to do. But knowing "people" it certainly makes for a better society when "people" are told just that.
 
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