what to charge

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satcom

Senior Member
The top big mistakes, most new EC's make.

They go into business withouth checking their area, to see if there is a need for a another EC, they just assume there will be work. Not eniough fish in the pond, even the burger and food companies, do a area study to determine if it gan make a projected profit.

They enter under funded, with no real planning, after all they heard a story of so many starting with nothing and making good, the real facts are thet they are the rare ones, not the average.

They fail to budget for advertising, and again assume word of mouth, and mini mart boards, will bring in profitable work, they will point to some rare sitauation where someone got lucky for a while and fell on to some work.

They never figure their cost of doing business, all expenses and operating costs, they rely on calling around for prices, and look for that reliable measure, the going rate, a number made up by another lost EC, that never figured his own costs.

Guessing jobs, rather then estimating them with known measures and tested costing, belliving that an eight hour day yealds eight hours of productive work, failling to account for scheduling and estimating time.

Never really track truck expenses, the real cost of owning and operating your truck, budgeting for maint and replacement.

And in many cases, failure to give themself a living wage.

Puppy dog management, panic and lower prices the minute business falls a bit, thinking working at a loss and keeping the men busy, until things pick up, not to worry, they will never know the difference, or discover the losses, they don't plan.
 

emahler

Senior Member
willdalrymple said:
I really don't care about "other labor" just Electricians, besides you left out an important fact. When the "electricians" out there just "what we do" part of the job and don't know what do do most of the time it is wrong. For example " Oh your breaker is tripping when you turn on your hair dryer , thats an easy fix I'll just put on a 40 amp breaker", or " The home inspector said the tester he used on your plugs showed an open ground, thats an easy fix we'll just put a jumper on the ground and the Neutral and those lites will work next time, yes of course its safe they both go back to the same spot anyway". Now you want tell me again how we only charge for "what we do".

Thanks Will D.

Here is an old example that will illustrate what I mean...

There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things mechanical. After serving his company loyally for over 30 years, he happily retired. Several years later the company contacted him regarding a seemingly impossible problem they were having with one of their multi-million dollar machines. They had tried everything and everyone else to get the machine to work but to no avail. In desperation, they called on the retired engineer who had solved so many of their problems in the past. The engineer reluctantly took the challenge. He spent a day studying the huge machine. At the end of the day, he marked a small ?x? in chalk on a particular component of the machine and stated, ?This is where your problem is?. The part was replaced and the machine worked perfectly again. The company received a bill for $50,000 from the engineer for his service. They demanded an itemized accounting of his charges. The engineer responded briefly: One chalk mark $1; Knowing where to put it $49,999.
It was paid in full and the engineer retired again in peace.

Now, my comment about charging for what we do, rather than what we know...your typical electrician would have submitted a bill for $561.00...$1 for the chalk and $70/hr for 8 hr labor....

that's what I mean by charging for what you know vs. what you do...
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
peter d said:
So EC's should charge the "going rate" and break even or lose money? Or make just enough to get by?

As had been stated, the "going rate" is based on a flawed foundation.

I can guarantee you that you will not make a go of it if your rates exceed your competitors, at least not for very long. If the rate that is available to you is not enough to make a go of it, you are just out of luck. Thats part of the free enterprise system.
 

emahler

Senior Member
petersonra said:
I can guarantee you that you will not make a go of it if your rates exceed your competitors, at least not for very long. If the rate that is available to you is not enough to make a go of it, you are just out of luck. Thats part of the free enterprise system.

i don't know what segment of the industry you are in, but man, i hope you work for someone else...

in my immediate area, we have T&M guys working for $50 upto flat rate guys charging $300+/hr....guess who's actually doing better? nicer office? better pay and benes? here's a hint.....it's not the $50/hr guys...

on the commercial side, we have guys who bill $50/hr up to $100+/hr...guess what? there is a market for all of them...

unless you have 10 potential customers and 10 contractors fighting for them, price isn't always the final factor...
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
petersonra said:
I can guarantee you that you will not make a go of it if your rates exceed your competitors, at least not for very long.

That is entirely untrue, at least in my neck of the woods. We have well established Nexstar and ESI companies whose hourly rate greatly exceeds the going rate. They will quote a service upgrade for double or triple the "going rate" all day long. But they make up for it with live phone operators, neat, clean professional looking workers and vehicles, and top notch service.
 

aline

Senior Member
Location
Utah
petersonra said:
I can guarantee you that you will not make a go of it if your rates exceed your competitors, at least not for very long. If the rate that is available to you is not enough to make a go of it, you are just out of luck. Thats part of the free enterprise system.
I think the guy in the below links would disagree with you.

I can almost guarantee you he did not accept the rate that was available to him. He created his own rates based on what he needed to charge to reach his goals and become sucessful. I would also be willing to bet his rates were higher than his competitors. Someone has to be the highest. He gets around $5,000 for a service upgrade instead of the $1,000 to $3,000 often mentioned on these forums. Of course anyone who charges more than the going rate must be a rip off. Right?

http://www.consumerschoiceaward.com...6457890521134618217&ctid=1007759&cnid=1000266

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Clock...er+Sparky;+Deal+Sets+Stage+For...-a0147303443

http://www.clockworkhomeservices.com/pressrelease/ESI Formed 1Q04.pdf

http://www.thesuccessfulcontractor.com/W08_startup.html
 
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Tiger Electrical

Senior Member
I honestly don't know (or care) what other ECs in the area charge. I know what I need to charge based on my expenses and goals. Then my only challenges are to provide a superior service and meet sales goals.

Dave
 

aline

Senior Member
Location
Utah
Tiger Electrical said:
I honestly don't know (or care) what other ECs in the area charge. I know what I need to charge based on my expenses and goals. Then my only challenges are to provide a superior service and meet sales goals.

Dave
I wouldn't go so far as to say I don't care what other ECs charge. I would base my prices off of what I need to charge to cover all of my expenses and make a profit but if I'm getting $3,000 for a service upgrade and the EC down the road is getting $5,000 I want to know what he's doing to get the $5,000.

Even if I'm making a decent profit at $3,000 but others are selling them at $5,000 why shouldn't I get $5,000 as well and just make that much more profit? Is there such a thing as making too much profit?

Just because my overhead may be lower than someone else doesn't mean I should sell my product for less. I should reap more profits for keeping overhead down instead of having lower prices.

How would I know if I'm missing out on more profit if I don't know what others are charging?

The key is not trying to figure out what you need to do to charge less than the competition but to figure out what you need to do to charge more than the competition. Better or more marketing or whatever.

So yes I do want to know what other ECs are charging. Not so I can price myself lower than them but so I can charge at least as much or more than them.

I'd hate to do service uprgades all year at $3,000, even if I was making a nice profit, only to find out everyone else had been getting $5,000 and I could have been getting $5,000 too.

If you still wanted to do them for $3,000 that would be your choice but wouldn't you want to know if others were getting $5,000 and that you could be getting that too?
 
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Tiger Electrical

Senior Member
I'm convinced that 90% of the ECs don't know their cost of business, are undercharging, burning through their initial startup fund and are on their way out of business. Finding out what they charge is a waste of my time. I occasionally see another bid that is little more than the cost of materials. They won't be my competitor for long and I'll be taking care of their warranty work when their phones are disconnected.

Dave
 

aline

Senior Member
Location
Utah
Tiger Electrical said:
I'm convinced that 90% of the ECs don't know their cost of business, are undercharging, burning through their initial startup fund and are on their way out of business. Finding out what they charge is a waste of my time. I occasionally see another bid that is little more than the cost of materials. They won't be my competitor for long and I'll be taking care of their warranty work when their phones are disconnected.

Dave
I agree.

But what about the other 10%?

What if they're consistantly getting more than you? Wouldn't you want to know that?

Your'e not interested in how much they're are getting and what kind of advertising and marketing they're doing?

I know I am.

If I didn't know that some companies were getting $5,000 for a service upgrade I might assume it's not possible.

I think it's wise to know as much about your competition as possible.

If I loose a bid to someone who's price was higher than mine I'd like to know why they chose the higher priced guy over me. If I don't know what the other bids were I wouldn't know if I lost the job because my price wasn't low enough or if I lost the job for some other reason that I need to work on.
 

SegDog

Member
Location
Philadelphia
priceless

priceless

Because every market and situation is different, it's folly to tell someone else what to do. I know what I need to meet my obligations and have a profit; and re-evaluate on a regular basis.

My former boss used to brag about what he over-charged on jobs. Funny thing, he never seemed happy and was, always, POed at something or someone. Explains the "former" part.

I learned a good lesson years ago when I needed a plumber. I called my buddy and he said he'd be out on Saturday. I asked why, and he said he did all his side-jobs on Saturday. I said that I was not a side-job, but a real job. He charged real-time money. My customers want a real job.

Starting to sound like Jimmy Durante.
 

aline

Senior Member
Location
Utah
SegDog said:
My former boss used to brag about what he over-charged on jobs.
How can this be?

Everyone knows you can't charge more than the going rate. :)

It's posted in these forums all the time.

With the average contractor making 5% net profit I think overcharging is the least of our worries.

Your former boss was probably bragging because he made 6%.
 
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satcom

Senior Member
aline said:
How can this be?

Everyone knows you can't charge more than the going rate. :)

It's posted in these forums all the time.

With the average contractor making 5% net profit I think overcharging is the least of our worries.

Your former boss was probably bragging because he made 6%.

Going going gone, since last year, we had 50% of the bottom feeders fall off the radar, they have no phone connected, their ad's are gone, they were pretty much the going rate guys, funny how the EC's charging the higher rates have made it thru the bad times, and are still around.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Tiger Electrical said:
Every year when the new phone books are delivered I check who's still in business and who's gone. There are always a significant group gone and more to take their place.

Dave

Guess they weren't really a significant group after all.:smile:
 
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