What wiring method can be used to limit EMF in a home where people can "feel" EMF?

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hurk27 said:
My firewall blocked that link as it wanted to do a redirect to cutcat.com which wanted to down load some files to my computer, an't going to happen:(
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Its your computer, the doc is from Google. But I can do screen pics of the important stuff. BBQ will probably lose it :lol::p:)
 
ActionDave said:
Thanks for the heads up, glad I did not take the bait. Makes me wonder about the legitimacy of the evidence on that link.
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I do too much of my work with this computer to take a chance, it may be a legit download but I can't take chances, that's why I have many tools on here and two hardware firewalls, with their own domain look up to make sure nothing gets past, it slows down my connection to some sites sometimes as it has to fend off all the popups and other adware junk that tries to download everytime you go to certain sites, but it lets me be much safer, also Zone alarm locks me down from anything coming in or out and lets me know when someone is list pinging IP's, even though pinging my IP will return nothing so it looks as if I'm not even here, Trend Micro does the rest as they remote scan my e-mails before it hits my computer and if any e-mail has something not good, it removes it and just puts a note that such and such sent me an e-mail that had a dangerous file such as malware in it that was removed, I have to ok any e-mail with attachments before I can receive them.
 
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mbrooke said:
Its your computer, the doc is from Google. But I can do screen pics of the important stuff. BBQ will probably lose it :lol::p:)
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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http://cutcat.com%2Fitem_images%2FStetzerizer%2520Presentation.ppt&ei=FgB8VNb5Cq32iQK7wIGICA&usg=AFQjCNG8t7RXFBlnl4PK-vnpYj9N55lB5w&sig2=PsVJxNiGEJlAy712E8XvLw&bvm=bv.80642063,d.cGE
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The above is the whole link, the highlighted in red is the redirect, cutcat is where the doc is coming from, it is not from Google, sorry to have to tell you, some times when we copy a link much is hidden in the link that we do not see.

Like I said it may be a legit download but I'm just very careful to what I allow to be downloaded, if it was a direct link to a doc that opened up with out having to download anything it wouldn't have been a problem but it wanted to download something and I didn't allow it.
 
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hurk27 said:
The above is the whole link, the highlighted in red is the redirect, cutcat is where the doc is coming from, it is not from Google, sorry to have to tell you, some times when we copy a link much is hidden in the link that we do not see.
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I didn't see that:( Sorry :ashamed1: I guess they stole it to further their own agenda :rant:

I have the file on my computer, is there anyway to upload it here?
 
It looks like a presentation, what is the three letters after the dot? like is it a word or excel, Power point?

If it is one of the Valid file extensions: bmp doc gif jpe jpeg jpg pdf png psd txt and is not over 146.5kb's then it may be possible? just when you go to post scroll down to the manage attachments button and upload it.
 
hurk27 said:
It looks like a presentation, what is the three letters after the dot? like is it a word or excel, Power point?

If it is one of the Valid file extensions: bmp doc gif jpe jpeg jpg pdf png psd txt and is not over 146.5kb's then it may be possible? just when you go to post scroll down to the manage attachments button and upload it.
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I think its larger but will try.
 
I have read this doc a few years ago, and it is correct that allot of current does flow in the earth, many years ago I proved a point that our low frequency power current can be sensed around the whole earth, as I took a spectrum analyzer and put two rods into the ground 60' apart, and was able to see our 60hz and Europe's 50hz on it as well as a very weak 25hz most likely coming from Philly area, I also had hits at 72hz and 92hz which used to be used to communicate to subs around the world 72hz is ours and 92 was the Russians frequency, there were also other hits I can't recall but I couldn't identify them, our sub transmitter is up in upper Michigan and I was in Florida at the time, if we can realize that as a whole the earth is a perfect conductor very close to 0 ohms then we can understand why this is possible, it's our small area of connection that has the high resistance, so we know that ultra low frequency currents can travel around the earth, but between the two points will be very very low voltage and or EMF if any that is detectable, higher frequencies do not follow this theory as they are filtered out, so the fact that this doc tells me that the current in earth is RF is a myth, it just cant happen otherwise we would be able to use the earth as a way to communicate around the world which we know can't happen, so some truth and much myth is what your reading.
 
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In the presentation of mbrooks, one proposal is against using common grounded neutral. My suggestion is to use grounded neutral where it is required using delta-star transformer at the place of use. In that way, stray current flow over ground could be limited. But it is not possible to implement it immediately here.
 
hurk27 said:
I have read this doc a few years ago, and it is correct that allot of current does flow in the earth, many years ago I proved a point that our low frequency power current can be sensed around the whole earth, as I took a spectrum analyzer and put two rods into the ground 60' apart, and was able to see our 60hz and Europe's 50hz on it as well as a very weak 25hz most likely coming from Philly area, I also had hits at 72hz and 92hz which used to be used to communicate to subs around the world 72hz is ours and 92 was the Russians frequency, there were also other hits I can't recall but I couldn't identify them, our sub transmitter is up in upper Michigan and I was in Florida at the time, if we can realize that as a whole the earth is a perfect conductor very close to 0 ohms then we can understand why this is possible, it's our small area of connection that has the high resistance, so we know that current can travel around the earth, but between and two points will be very very low voltage, higher frequencies do not follow this theory as they are filtered out, so the fact that this doc tells me that the current in earth is RF is a myth, it just cant happen otherwise wee would be able to use the earth as a way to communicate around the world which we know can't happen, so some truth and much myth is what your reading.
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I never knew that. That's awesome! :)

Not all of it is myth though. I think the "RF" they are referring to (though incorrect) is 60Hz and triplen harmonics that end up on the neutral. The issue at hand comes from the nature of MGNs. Even when the neutral is sufficient in size, at least 40 to 50% of the current divides between it and all the parallel connections. Its those parallel divisions that cause magnetic fields and stray voltage. As the system see more none linear loads neutral current goes up which in turn puts more on the earth.
 
Sahib said:
In the presentation of mbrooks, one proposal is against using common grounded neutral. My suggestion is to use grounded neutral where it is required using delta-star transformer at the place of use. In that way, stray current flow over ground could be limited. But it is not possible to implement it immediately here.
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IMO, I think the proposal is valid. There is nothing wrong with having a multiply earthed neutral conductor out on the line, rather using it to carry current under normal conditions is where the issue comes up. A delta primary would eliminate all ground current from the MV supply.


Interestingly to note that in the State of California the public utilities commission rules forces stray current and EMF mitigation. The orders are written in such a way that they force the use of double bushing phase phase connected transformers or treating the neutral as live by placing it up on insulators. In California nearly all transformers are wired as such.

Am I correct to assume similar in India, ie most 11kv-400Y230 transformers are Dyn11?
 
mbrooke said:
I never knew that. That's awesome! :)

Not all of it is myth though. I think the "RF" they are referring to (though incorrect) is 60Hz and triplen harmonics that end up on the neutral. The issue at hand comes from the nature of MGNs. Even when the neutral is sufficient in size, at least 40 to 50% of the current divides between it and all the parallel connections. Its those parallel divisions that cause magnetic fields and stray voltage. As the system see more none linear loads neutral current goes up which in turn puts more on the earth.
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remember current divides proportionately to each paths impedance, if the earths connection is lower then the current will flow mostly on the earth even if the impedance of the neutral is of a sufficient size, this is why we will still see most of the neutral current on a city water pipe that is connected to other services on the same transformer down the road, the triplen harmonics will filter out way before they get to any level that would produce much EMF from the earth, remember the Navies subs transmitters used these ultra low frequencies because trying to go any higher then 100hz just attenuated the signal way too much, Russia used the highest at 92hz trying to stay away from us so that maybe we wouldn't try to detect them, but it wasn't very effective even at that frequency and they had to use much more power to overcome this problem, going lower then 50hz 60hz just meant that you would have to try to filter out the 50 and 60hz that was just to powerful to overcome, but in building wiring it is possible that these can be a problem but the same theory applies that as long as all the circuit conductors are ran together they cancel.
 
hurk27 said:
remember current divides proportionately to each paths impedance, if the earths connection is lower then the current will flow mostly on the earth even if the impedance of the neutral is of a sufficient size, this is why we will still see most of the neutral current on a city water pipe that is connected to other services on the same transformer down the road, the triplen harmonics will filter out way before they get to any level that would produce much EMF from the earth, remember the Navies subs transmitters used these ultra low frequencies because trying to go any higher then 100hz just attenuated the signal way too much, Russia used the highest at 92hz trying to stay away from us so that maybe we wouldn't try to detect them, but it wasn't very effective even at that frequency and they had to use much more power to overcome this problem, going lower then 50hz 60hz just meant that you would have to try to filter out the 50 and 60hz that was just to powerful to overcome, but in building wiring it is possible that these can be a problem but the same theory applies that as long as all the circuit conductors are ran together they cancel.
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Excellent points. Municipal city water and gas take the most current followed by telephone sheathing on average. Basically POCO likes to make use of the customer's grounding system, hence the bond between the MV and LV.


Out of curiosity, how accurate is this diagram assuming none linear loads?
 
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