What wiring method can be used to limit EMF in a home where people can "feel" EMF?

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hurk27

Senior Member
Here is an example from the link:

Here is another example that most would not pick up on in the sweep you posted.

Take a look at the scale on the left in that scan, the voltage in in blue and the red is the current pulses from the switch mode power supply firing of the CFL, that is not a triplen wave form, most would not even know to look at that, the level of the current that your seeing in that scan is very low, the voltage low so again this is just misleading Scan that is not even telling where they are capturing this scan from, when I see a presentation that is riddled with mis-information it makes me very leary of the document as a whole, if you measured the EMF at ground level by power lines I doubt you will see much in the reading, also triplen currents are on the neutral they are also on the phase conductors and cancel out as far as EMF goes, you can not have current of any kind taking only one path, any current passing through earth that is higher then 100hz will also be attenuated and not have enough energy to produce much of an EMF level, and since the other path for these triplen currents on the phase conductors are up high on the pole I don't see the angle this document it trying to make?

When someone tries to deceive when making a point then the whole should also be subject.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Here is another example that most would not pick up on in the sweep you posted.

Take a look at the scale on the left in that scan, the voltage in in blue and the red is the current pulses from the switch mode power supply firing of the CFL, that is not a triplen wave form, most would not even know to look at that, the level of the current that your seeing in that scan is very low, the voltage low so again this is just misleading Scan that is not even telling where they are capturing this scan from, when I see a presentation that is riddled with mis-information it makes me very leary of the document as a whole, if you measured the EMF at ground level by power lines I doubt you will see much in the reading, also triplen currents are on the neutral they are also on the phase conductors and cancel out as far as EMF goes, you can not have current of any kind taking only one path, any current passing through earth that is higher then 100hz will also be attenuated and not have enough energy to produce much of an EMF level, and since the other path for these triplen currents on the phase conductors are up high on the pole I don't see the angle this document it trying to make?

When someone tries to deceive when making a point then the whole should also be subject.

I have to agree. I could be wrong but what caught me was current in phase with voltage, wouldn't it be lagging since CFLs are not a PF of 1?


The 50/60hz fields are valid IMO. When current travels on water lines/across the earth that cause phase conductors to have a higher magnetic field since they cant cancel. But RF wise you make a good point.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Excellent points. Municipal city water and gas take the most current followed by telephone sheathing on average. Basically POCO likes to make use of the customer's grounding system, hence the bond between the MV and LV.


Out of curiosity, how accurate is this diagram assuming none linear loads?

Without taking measurements of the amount of EMF around the line I really cant say, but if we understand that EMF drops expediently with distance and the fact that the current on the MGN, cable, and phone lines will contribute to cancellation I would say you shouldn't see much EMF if any from the ground, a lineman may have more exposure when working upon the lines but the general public should be fairly safe IMHO, in high rises and buildings where these lines are close to the building you may find some concern, but how much would be a good question?

I would be more of an advocate to double bushing transformers and an EGC from the X0 neutral bushing to the house to prevent stray voltages on a houses grounding to prevent problems around pools and water such as docks that may cause shocks and drownings that are caused by weak or lost service neutrals and or the voltage drop on the neutral, then to require it for this? But as has been said many time on here, fighting the utility industry is almost impossible, stray voltage that causes shocks caused by lost service neutrals or lost primary neutrals to me has been a much higher proved danger to life and property backed up by fact then I have ever seen with an EMF problem, but that is just MHO.

I do need to turn in for the night as I do work tomorrow, but I will try to continue tomorrow if I can.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Without taking measurements of the amount of EMF around the line I really cant say, but if we understand that EMF drops expediently with distance and the fact that the current on the MGN, cable, and phone lines will contribute to cancellation I would say you shouldn't see much EMF if any from the ground, a lineman may have more exposure when working upon the lines but the general public should be fairly safe IMHO, in high rises and buildings where these lines are close to the building you may find some concern, but how much would be a good question?

I would be more of an advocate to double bushing transformers and an EGC from the X0 neutral bushing to the house to prevent stray voltages on a houses grounding to prevent problems around pools and water such as docks that may cause shocks and drownings that are caused by weak or lost service neutrals and or the voltage drop on the neutral, then to require it for this? But as has been said many time on here, fighting the utility industry is almost impossible, stray voltage that causes shocks caused by lost service neutrals or lost primary neutrals to me has been a much higher proved danger to life and property backed up by fact then I have ever seen with an EMF problem, but that is just MHO.

I do need to turn in for the night as I do work tomorrow, but I will try to continue tomorrow if I can.

Perhaps not so much from the ground, but metal water pipes would still be more. Its the earth current that IMO is the biggest issue, as it can be over half the MGN current. If current does flow closer to the surface than at lower levels magnetic fields would theoretically be higher. The way I see it is a double whammy, 40amps on the earth is also 40amps of current that cant cancel on the phases, so both earth and lines would have higher magnetic strength. How much and how that geometrically plays out I can only guess.


There is one great irony though. Magnetic fields are higher in residential neighborhoods because of single phase lines. Current doesn't cancel as transformers rotate phases like on 3 phase lines. Rather it adds. A 3 phase line often has a neutral carrying pure imbalance which can be small, but a single phase just adds with every transformer.

But EMF aside, stray voltage is very valid. It has been proven over and over to be a concern. I have to agree with the articles point regarding load increase. Both the actual load increase, feeders becoming unbalanced as they age and the increased use of non linear current (think increased neutral currents in feeders with high harmonic loads) contributes to stray voltage. As well as breaks in the MGN. Stray voltage is nothing more than voltage drop across the earth itself, a voltage gradient much the same way if one were to drive a ground rod and hit it with 120. Leads in the ground will show a voltage gradient.


Both IMO EMF and stray voltage would be eliminated by connecting pole pigs phase to phase like Cali, but, getting change about is not easy. Nor could this be done overnight. I also agree a ground all the way back to the XO can help, certainly if one lost a service neutral in that the grounding scheme would remain cold relative to remote earth.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Perhaps not so much from the ground, but metal water pipes would still be more. Its the earth current that IMO is the biggest issue, as it can be over half the MGN current. If current does flow closer to the surface than at lower levels magnetic fields would theoretically be higher. The way I see it is a double whammy, 40amps on the earth is also 40amps of current that cant cancel on the phases, so both earth and lines would have higher magnetic strength. How much and how that geometrically plays out I can only guess.


There is one great irony though. Magnetic fields are higher in residential neighborhoods because of single phase lines. Current doesn't cancel as transformers rotate phases like on 3 phase lines. Rather it adds. A 3 phase line often has a neutral carrying pure imbalance which can be small, but a single phase just adds with every transformer.

But EMF aside, stray voltage is very valid. It has been proven over and over to be a concern. I have to agree with the articles point regarding load increase. Both the actual load increase, feeders becoming unbalanced as they age and the increased use of non linear current (think increased neutral currents in feeders with high harmonic loads) contributes to stray voltage. As well as breaks in the MGN. Stray voltage is nothing more than voltage drop across the earth itself, a voltage gradient much the same way if one were to drive a ground rod and hit it with 120. Leads in the ground will show a voltage gradient.


Both IMO EMF and stray voltage would be eliminated by connecting pole pigs phase to phase like Cali, but, getting change about is not easy. Nor could this be done overnight. I also agree a ground all the way back to the XO can help, certainly if one lost a service neutral in that the grounding scheme would remain cold relative to remote earth.

you must keep in mind that the voltage drop on electrode connection to earth is only a few feet around the electrode, once you get to a point of about 26feet there is no more voltage drop, think of earth as of billions of parallel resistors, in a three dimensional area, close to the electrode you have very little earth so you have few parallel paths, as you move out from the electrode you add more parallel paths expediently, once you have reached the 26 foot mark there are so many parallel paths that you can consider the earth as zero ohms, this is why the greatest percentage of voltage drop is closest to the rod, at 3' 90% of the voltage has been dropped, at 26' 99.999999% has been dropped, because there is very little soil volume and very few parallel paths, you must think in three dimensions not in two on a plane, also we know current takes all paths back to source, since the earth as a whole is zero ohms then we can expect that this current can travel all the way around the world in every direction from the rod (the reason I did the experiment with the spectrum analyzer mention in a previous post that showed that we can see the 50hz of Europe here around the world), this has been proven in many experiments including one on here, (do a search for "time to eat crow" By Gary).

Knowing this then we will see that current between two points will not run in a straight line just between these two points but fan out and down from each electrode, experiments has also shown that it will not just run to the next electrode down the line of poles, but instead come back to the electrode that is on the secondary of the transformer feeding this primary at the substation.

So in essences the current flowing in the earth is spread out at a very quick ratio from the electrode and the current drops expediently with all the parallel paths as you move out from the electrode, remember this also means down into the earth in all direction from the electrode, so like I said before, the amount of EMF would be dissipated very quickly as you move out from the electrode, if you add all the other electrodes then you will see very little current at each, but you will get some EMF in close proximity of each rod, how much I would have no idea as all my experiments done in Florida at the University of Florida at Gainesville was done to better understand how electrodes functioned and how current flowed from them, but as you pointed out this also causes the phase conductors up on the pole to not have a net zero cancellation current so I would expect that the EMF would be higher up by these conductors, but because of the distance to them and the fact that the MGN and other neutral paths paralleled with the MGN will also cancel some of the EMF to the ground level, how fast it drops off as you move away should be rather quick, but because of the electrode at the pole you should see a little rise as you move from the middle of a span to the pole, without a gauss meter I would have no idea how much, again any hi-rise that may have primary conductors run close to an outside wall may see some higher readings on the opposite side of the wall, in the home you may experience higher readings around the GEC and the bond to the water pipe, as well as the water pipe to the point it exits the building, but if all other wiring is done to the NEC, I would not expect high readings except like was pointed out where circuit conductors are run in different paths like on three-ways.

I would like to point out that it has been estimated that there is millions upon millions of amps of current flowing around and through the earth at any given moment, but since they all have different sources we can't add them together in an additive fashion, but this current is so spread out through all the parallel paths that the current between two points is almost not measurable, this also goes for voltage, you will find it hard to get more then volt if you were to put two rods in at 60' apart then measured the voltage between them, we tried and got only like 400 Milli-volts, the highest I read was about 1.2 volts when I put them in-line with over head power lines but some of this could have been from induction to my wires I used to measure with, everything becomes the parallel path down to the iron core in the earth anytime we inject a voltage into earth.

At higher voltages things change because of the flashover point between the particles of earth, this is why we might see a high voltage line that fell to the ground cause tracking across the surface or a lightning strike, but below a certain voltage it follows the above theory.

one of the problems with the EMF theory is I know of many welders who have worked their entire life welding and have never had any ill effects that could be contributed to EMF, and if anyone there is that would be someone to study it would be them as they work in a EMF rich environment that is so far above anyone Else's exposure level and for much longer times then anyone else.

But like I said before I believe many illness are a gene driven problem, and we all are different and come from many different cultures and environments that may or may not make us prone to certain illness and that is something we cannot change at least yet, but who knows maybe some day they will learn how to modify our genes to take out the bad DNA that may let us live for ever.:eek:
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I deon't know where the line is but there is some evidence out there. Just because we tend to not believe it does not mean we should ignore it.
Then don't. Wire the house however you see fit.

It is not the job of the NEC to force compliance to standards based on unproven theories. Just because someone thinks demons reside in electrical systems and it cannot be proven that they don't, that doesn't mean that the NEC should force wiring methods that would keep them from escaping, even if "it couldn't hurt".

I would draw the line at the edge of proven facts.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Then don't. Wire the house however you see fit.

It is not the job of the NEC to force compliance to standards based on unproven theories. Just because someone thinks demons reside in electrical systems and it cannot be proven that they don't, that doesn't mean that the NEC should force wiring methods that would keep them from escaping, even if "it couldn't hurt".

I would draw the line at the edge of proven facts.

So everything in the NEC is based on proven fact? Ha... There isn't much in this world that can be proved. Look at the threads around the forum and the disagreements on best wiring practices. There are many countries that think the equipotential bonding for a swimming pool is a bad idea and they have their theories as to why...
 

donaldelectrician

Senior Member
So everything in the NEC is based on proven fact? Ha... There isn't much in this world that can be proved. Look at the threads around the forum and the disagreements on best wiring practices. There are many countries that think the equipotential bonding for a swimming pool is a bad idea and they have their theories as to why...



Dennis , start a thread on that equipotential bonding , why or why not ? That interest me .




Don
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
So everything in the NEC is based on proven fact? Ha... There isn't much in this world that can be proved. Look at the threads around the forum and the disagreements on best wiring practices. There are many countries that think the equipotential bonding for a swimming pool is a bad idea and they have their theories as to why...

Yes, grounding is indeed Black Magic. :D

But irrespective of that, I do not believe the NEC has any business dictating that wiring methods take "EM sensitivity" into account. If someone claims to have this sensitivity and wants to pay for wiring that mitigates it, that's fine. I do not believe that the rest of us should have to.

YMMV
 
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mbrooke

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United States
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Technician
you must keep in mind that the voltage drop on electrode connection to earth is only a few feet around the electrode, once you get to a point of about 26feet there is no more voltage drop, think of earth as of billions of parallel resistors, in a three dimensional area, close to the electrode you have very little earth so you have few parallel paths, as you move out from the electrode you add more parallel paths expediently, once you have reached the 26 foot mark there are so many parallel paths that you can consider the earth as zero ohms, this is why the greatest percentage of voltage drop is closest to the rod, at 3' 90% of the voltage has been dropped, at 26' 99.999999% has been dropped, because there is very little soil volume and very few parallel paths, you must think in three dimensions not in two on a plane, also we know current takes all paths back to source, since the earth as a whole is zero ohms then we can expect that this current can travel all the way around the world in every direction from the rod (the reason I did the experiment with the spectrum analyzer mention in a previous post that showed that we can see the 50hz of Europe here around the world), this has been proven in many experiments including one on here, (do a search for "time to eat crow" By Gary).

True, but keep in mind that the MGN grounds (both supplies and returns) as well as the substation grid (return) are in very close proximity relative to the size of the earth. A single ground rod is poor in that as you say the soil around it is a small amount of area. However, POCOs have access to every single rod in a city, which end up being a semi to good conductor as a whole. I have no doubt current can be seen across the globe, but my understanding is current tends to flow near the surface of the earth. This definitely would be true immediately around every ground rod since they are only driven a few feet (generally 8-10).

One thing that I guess could prove this is stray voltage. Even though current might take the whole of the sphere with billions of miles of parallel paths, why does stray voltage occur, even on systems with many ground rods and moist soil? Why is it that dairy cows, fed by rural systems with little load (compared to a city) and many earth connections to protect against lightning, still produce voltage over the surface of the earth? Something as simple as a cow standing a few feet apart on a farm property gives readings over what is claimed to be zero ohms?


Keep in mind that if I cut a ground wire between a rod and an MGN I might get a few volts at most. But that is not the real system voltage. If I cut the neutral going over to the XO bushing under load to a power transformer feeding a distribution line under load I would get about 14,400 volts on a 25kv distribution line. This is approximately the real voltage that is between the substation and any transformer. If we took those same ohmic values to earth as a whole across the system, then plugged in thousands of volts it comes to be very different.











but instead come back to the electrode that is on the secondary of the transformer feeding this primary at the substation.

On a single phase line, but one a 3 phase line current will go up and down. Current in an MGN isn't just looking for the substation grid, its looking for symmetrical cancelation. If I have all my pole pigs one B and C phase, then up the line added pigs on A phase, current would start going down since neutral current as the vector cancellation of the phases (if I worded it right)






So in essences the current flowing in the earth is spread out at a very quick ratio from the electrode and the current drops expediently with all the parallel paths as you move out from the electrode, remember this also means down into the earth in all direction from the electrode, so like I said before, the amount of EMF would be dissipated very quickly as you move out from the electrode, if you add all the other electrodes then you will see very little current at each, but you will get some EMF in close proximity of each rod, how much I would have no idea as all my experiments done in Florida at the University of Florida at Gainesville was done to better understand how electrodes functioned and how current flowed from them, but as you pointed out this also causes the phase conductors up on the pole to not have a net zero cancellation current so I would expect that the EMF would be higher up by these conductors, but because of the distance to them and the fact that the MGN and other neutral paths paralleled with the MGN will also cancel some of the EMF to the ground level, how fast it drops off as you move away should be rather quick, but because of the electrode at the pole you should see a little rise as you move from the middle of a span to the pole, without a gauss meter

EMFs around anyone rod would be higher, but probably not to bad. However, taking earth out of the equation, there is still something that often carries more current. Metal water lines. I have measured 18 amps on a water bond with the main shut off more than once. That is an obscene number. Chances are that's a break in a neutral somewhere outside the structure on OCOs system, but shows the immediate short falls of an MGN. Breaks are just shunted over what shouldn't be. Still, most water bonds measure about half an amp to an amp on average. That current will cause high EMFs on the service feeder, equipment, grounding electrode conductor travelling over to the bond and the pipe itself. Its this connection POCOs love, because it is literally a free conductor.








I would like to point out that it has been estimated that there is millions upon millions of amps of current flowing around and through the earth at any given moment, but since they all have different sources we can't add them together in an additive fashion, but this current is so spread out through all the parallel paths that the current between two points is almost not measurable, this also goes for voltage, you will find it hard to get more then volt if you were to put two rods in at 60' apart then measured the voltage between them, we tried and got only like 400 Milli-volts, the highest I read was about 1.2 volts when I put them in-line with over head power lines but some of this could have been from induction to my wires I used to measure with, everything becomes the parallel path down to the iron core in the earth anytime we inject a voltage into earth.


That is a real scenario, but not all of them. Voltages as high as a few volts have been red on farm soil just a few feet apart. People get shocked all the time from pools, spas, plumbing ect ect. Up to dozens of volts have been read with main breakers open. Mike Holt even has pictures of a gas meter reading a few volts to ground where he explains "that is a huge stray voltage problem". And these few volts shock. In Upstate NY people have sued complaining of shocks on everything bonded to the homes neutral. Farmers all across the US have sued for stray voltage issues. Heck in Minnesota a poco had to require an entire farm town to delta to get it to stop. There are even posts on DIY sites about people being shocked on pools with the main off. Google stray voltage law suits and it will keep you up at night.

Now of course one could argue well maybe its just the neutral and everything attached to it. The earth itself can never energize. Nope. A lot of the cases are the earth themselves. Dairy cows in open fields have been effected by it around nothing connected to an MGN. Experts have been able to measure it with a equipment and rods just a few feet apart.

I disagree, if current used the whole mass of the earth (and it might) then why is stray voltage real, proven and held up in courts all over the US. Why were Dairy land blockers (Ronks) developed?



At higher voltages things change because of the flashover point between the particles of earth, this is why we might see a high voltage line that fell to the ground cause tracking across the surface or a lightning strike, but below a certain voltage it follows the above theory.

one of the problems with the EMF theory is I know of many welders who have worked their entire life welding and have never had any ill effects that could be contributed to EMF, and if anyone there is that would be someone to study it would be them as they work in a EMF rich environment that is so far above anyone Else's exposure level and for much longer times then anyone else.

True, but still bear in mind an MGN is really running around thousands of volts.

I cant speak for welders, or those you have known, but keep in mind everyone is different. But they may have proven EMFs aren't that dangerous.






But like I said before I believe many illness are a gene driven problem, and we all are different and come from many different cultures and environments that may or may not make us prone to certain illness and that is something we cannot change at least yet, but who knows maybe some day they will learn how to modify our genes to take out the bad DNA that may let us live for ever.:eek:

Correct, Genes play a role as does environment. The way cancer works is that any substance increases the chance. Yes smokers exist who smoke but never get cancer while others do. It is probability at work governed by genes, but why let a system we designed play natural selection?
 

mbrooke

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Technician
Still, it doesnt sway me. Mainstream sources aren't always the whole story. Or fact. Its like when they always refer to downed wires as transformer explosions. Believable to those who haven't researched it.


Anyway, I think its time to call me a conspiracy theorist :p:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAkxR9T01pw

And just to add, testing single cells and then looking for visuals inst the same as testing a whole organism. Let alone as complex as a human.
 
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junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
EMF reception:

Back in 1955 or so after I had my first silver tooth filling, my uncle showed me how you could take a piece of aluminum foil and an old motor brush and hold them between your teeth and actually hear the local AM radio station.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
Which, just for feeding the conspiracy theories, is how the government feeds propaganda into your brain at night without one being aware <G>.


No wonder the old folks with false teeth do not go on Facebook much, they do not get the nightly subliminal messages of: "feed your ego, feed you ego, tell about yourself on internet social media" or other such drivel?
 

mbrooke

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United States
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Technician
Which, just for feeding the conspiracy theories, is how the government feeds propaganda into your brain at night without one being aware <G>.



I think the reason why world issues never get solved is this reason. When something valid is mentioned, its immediately attached to something totally insane.

If this forum existed 50 years ago I can only imagine the comments one would get if they brought up Asbestos as being cancerous. "I work with it every day, still fit as a whistle" ":lol: You've gone mad"
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Just got a call today about a woman who's daughter has issues with electromagnetic field's . Going there tomorrow morning and I'll see what's up. I am seeing more and more people like this. Sort of like a craze or fad -- like Gluten free---:)
 
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