When is code going to change on backstabbing

[infinity]

Since running two hair dryers at the same time, even on a 20A circuit, will trip the breaker, I would also like to propose a change that each bathroom outlet must be on its own circuit. As it stands right now, all bathroom outlets in the house can be on the same 20A circuit, as long as no other loads are on them. Whenever I wire a house, I always run separate circuits for the outlets in each bathroom.

I wish you wired my house, 5 bathrooms all the receptacles on one circuit.

 

[flashlight]

I wish you wired my house, 5 bathrooms all the receptacles on one circuit.

How many occupants in house ? Does that circuit trip often ?
I also run separate circuits to bathrooms.

 

[480sparky]

The likelihood of two hair dryers running side by side is much lower than the likelihood of two running in different bathrooms that are on the same circuit, so nothing gained is not a true statement.

But still a possibility. Ever hear of 'two teen-aged daughters'?

 

[flashlight]

But still a possibility. Ever hear of 'two teen-aged daughters'?

About twelve years ago, that's just what I had ! We were living in a 2 bedroom apartment in NYC, just one bathroom so they
were fighting over it but not drying their hair together. Sometimes, one of them was using an infernal electric hair curler outside
in the hallway, but luckily that was another circuit.

 

[retirede]

Yes, that's true. But that also reminds me of another Code change that I'd like to see. Since running two hair dryers at the same time, even on a 20A circuit, will trip the breaker, I would also like to propose a change that each bathroom outlet must be on its own circuit. As it stands right now, all bathroom outlets in the house can be on the same 20A circuit, as long as no other loads are on them. Whenever I wire a house, I always run separate circuits for the outlets in each bathroom.

So in other words, any house that I've wired can potentially have several teenage girls and their parents, and two girls could be drying their hair in the main bath and power room at the same time as their mother drying her hair in the master bathroom -- without tripping any breakers.

From a design standpoint, that’s good practice.
However, the NEC states that it’s not a design manual. It’s a minimum standard for safety. All bathrooms on one circuit is not unsafe.

 

[infinity]

How many occupants in house ? Does that circuit trip often ?
I also run separate circuits to bathrooms.

Just two right now so no it never trips. I always run a separate circuit to each bathroom.

 

[480sparky]

I, too, run separate bath circuits......... unless there's two half baths. Then those get one circuit.

 

[flashlight]

Just two right now so no it never trips. I always run a separate circuit to each bathroom.

Nothing ever trips around here either. You must be an "empty-nester" like a lot of us here.

 

[ptonsparky]

Nothing ever trips around here either. You must be an "empty-nester" like a lot of us here.

Truth be known, I wouldn't mind having something trip because of demand. Kind of boring.

 

[James L]

I just wired a new house with 3 bedrooms on top level, 1/2 bath on 1st floor, full bath in basement for 4th bedroom.

I ran 3 bath circuits:
1) Master bath 2 receps
2) 2nd floor 2 baths
3) 1/2 bath + basement bath

fwiw, I put a gfci device in every opening except Master Bath because it's 1 vanity top. If separate vanity tops, each has its own gfci device.

 

[Eddie702]

They allow backstabbing because if they remove it from the code they wouldn't need AFCI

 

[kwired]

Hair dryers, too. They both draw the same amount of current.

At least hair dryers (the hand held version) are short operating time. Space heaters can be on 24 hours a day.

exactly. hair dryer only heats the connections for 5 or 10 minutes at a time. Space heater can run for hours at a time or never cycle at all . worse yet gets left unattended or at least gets little attention.

Even cooking appliances with similar wattage cycle frequently once initially warmed up and are not as much of a problem.

 

[kwired]

Yes, that's true. But that also reminds me of another Code change that I'd like to see. Since running two hair dryers at the same time, even on a 20A circuit, will trip the breaker, I would also like to propose a change that each bathroom outlet must be on its own circuit. As it stands right now, all bathroom outlets in the house can be on the same 20A circuit, as long as no other loads are on them. Whenever I wire a house, I always run separate circuits for the outlets in each bathroom.

So in other words, any house that I've wired can potentially have several teenage girls and their parents, and two girls could be drying their hair in the main bath and power room at the same time as their mother drying her hair in the master bathroom -- without tripping any breakers.

This does not need to be code, would just be one more thing added that is turning code into a design manual that it has always claimed it is not.

How does this make the electrical installation safer for life or property? You overload the circuit, the breaker trips life and property was saved.

House with many kids has two go to their bedroom to dry their hair because someone else needs to use the bathroom and they still may end up on same circuit - so now we going to propose separate circuit to every bedroom being required, or even every receptacle in case they were both in the same room? People do learn they can't use these at the same time, well some do anyway.

 

[kwired]

They allow backstabbing because if they remove it from the code they wouldn't need AFCI

And sadly enough the "glowing connection" that may be somewhat likely to develop is not something an AFCI will detect.

 

[mbrooke]

This is what I find on a weekly basis. I find one or two burnt receptacles every month. The home that this came out of was only 7years old. View attachment 2554094

Is it just me but are the notches in the wrong direction on the lower screws?

 

[480sparky]

Is it just me but are the notches in the wrong direction on the lower screws?

If you mean the notches where the wires are inserted under the pressure plate, that's not relevant. There is no CW or CCW on a pressure plate.

 

[mbrooke]

If you mean the notches where the wires are inserted under the pressure plate, that's not relevant. There is no CW or CCW on a pressure plate.

You loop the wire around in the direction the screw tightened.

 

[jim dungar]

This does not need to be code, would just be one more thing added that is turning code into a design manual that it has always claimed it is not.

The code does not say it cannot contain any design requirements. 90.1 says it is not intended to be a design specification or instruction manual for untrained persons. The NEC tells you what must be done, it does not tell you specifically how to do it.

 

[kwired]

The code does not say it cannot contain any design requirements. 90.1 says it is not intended to be a design specification or instruction manual for untrained persons. The NEC tells you what must be done, it does not tell you specifically how to do it.

That is what it says, is not necessarily what it has done over the years. There have been many requirements that should be left as design decisions.

If you are going to "what if" every possibility the end result should be that electricity is dangerous and we shouldn't even use it.

 

[480sparky]

That is what it says, is not necessarily what it has done over the years. There have been many requirements that should be left as design decisions.

If you are going to "what if" every possibility the end result should be that electricity is dangerous and we shouldn't even use it.

What if...... someone wants to start a grow operation in the bedroom closet? I propose a 20a 120v circuit for every closet.