Which is better? LED fixture replacement or LED retrofit?

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wirenut1980

Senior Member
Location
Plainfield, IN
Hello, I am reviewing bids to replace outdoor parking lot lighting 1000 W HPS fixtures at my church. We have gotten some bids to replace the entire fixtures with LED fixtures, and some bids to retrofit the HPS fixtures with LED (remove the HPS ballast).

The retrofit bids are less than the LED fixture replacement. I am wondering if you all could tell me the advantages and disadvantages of each option, and whether you think one is better than the other? I am guessing the fixture replacement is better since it is more expensive, but wanted to check.

Thanks in advance!

Dave
 

cpinetree

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
I would also go with new fixtures.
The new fixtures will be designed to dissipate heat and maximize the light output using whatever optics are needed.
Plus you will probably get a much better warranty on new.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
The HPS optics are designed around the arc tube length of the lamp. When you do a LED retro, the LED source is bigger and the light distribution pattern on the ground won't be the same
Luminare mfgs have to test their products in an device that does point by point lighting levels its a long expensive process, that results in the lighting distribution patterns that are use to layout the position, height, and lumens for the job.
Its doubt full the retrofit folks duplicate that.
But if you get the original lighting layouts for the job, then your replacement LED luminare supplier can evaluate if it matches.
What you are concerned with is min to max and uniformity ratios.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
The International Association of Electrical Inspectors (IAEI) in my region have a bulletin warning against LED retro-fitters, particularly for outdoor HID, and commercial sign lighting. The retrofits are not listed for the enclosures, are burning up, catching fire, electrocuting people when it rains, and the installers disappear, disconnect their phones, and are untraceable.

LED retrofit work has become the new low-lying fruit, poorly regulated, lacking enforcement, and attracting inexperienced operators, who may lack insurance, or licensing. If retrofits burn out, you have no warranty. If they burn down the building, you have no recourse without a verifiable license #, with a GL policy that matches someone's ID.

Or, you could just avoid retrofits, and buy listed LED luminaries, and register the warranty information.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
The International Association of Electrical Inspectors (IAEI) in my region have a bulletin warning against LED retro-fitters, particularly for outdoor HID, and commercial sign lighting. The retrofits are not listed for the enclosures, are burning up, catching fire, electrocuting people when it rains, and the installers disappear, disconnect their phones, and are untraceable.

Please provide some sort of link, certainly if this is really happening you can find a news story about it.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
The retrofits are not listed for the enclosures, are burning up, catching fire, electrocuting people when it rains, and the installers disappear, disconnect their phones, and are untraceable.
I've replaced most of the light bulbs in our house. We moved here about ten years ago and the power company gave us a bunch of CFLs. In that time I think two failed and I replaced those with LEDs. Since they fit in the same BC fixtures, run cooler than the CFLs, MUCH cooler than the incandescents ant use much less energy I can't see a down side or the need to change any fixture.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
I've replaced most of the light bulbs in our house.

If your just replacing screw-in light bulbs, the only issues may be reduced LED lifespans from excess heat, in totallly enclosed, or to some extent recessed light fixtures. The California Energy Code, in its 2016 update --effective on Jan-1, 2017--, is allowing these LED screw-in bulb replacements, if listed under a newly created JA8 standard. JA8 will only require 60% efficiency this cycle, but will be a moving target that changes with each code cycle.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
The old-school boys at Orange Empire Division IAEI don't need no stinking smart phones, or internet links, and I lost their handout hard copy.
Had to search google to find it.
http://www.energymanagertoday.com/ul-warns-on-led-retrofit-safety-0122899/

This is what it actually says.

There have been, the organization said, a “growing number of reports of improperly installed and uncertified retrofit lighting kits that may pose a fire or shock hazard.”

So far, incorrectly installed LEDs have yet to be blamed for a fire.

You might well end up with the same problem if you used an installer that installed brand new LED fixtures improperly or unlisted LED fixtures. this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with installing a retrofit unit, only whether it is done correctly and with appropriate parts.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
If your just replacing screw-in light bulbs, the only issues may be reduced LED lifespans from excess heat, in totallly enclosed, or to some extent recessed light fixtures.
I've heard this before. My simple question is "What excess heat?" CFLs run much cooler than incandescents. And LEDs even cooler.
 

Ragin Cajun

Senior Member
Location
Upstate S.C.
I just replaced two 400W MH pole mounted fixtures at my home/office. Tried several to replace the lamps and ballasts - didn't last 6 months.

This week I replaced both with Hubbell 128W LED fixtures. That's nearly 1/4 the wattage! Slick mounting. The old fixtures were bears to remove.

The light output is greater than before, the coverage wider, and much more even. No retrofit could come even close to that.

I was a holdout for LED's until I was convinced the current crop of fixtures were what they claimed. And then I had to have hands on.

I would never recommend retrofit for so many reasons. My new fixtures have a 5 year warranty. No retro will come close to that, assuming they are still in business after a year or so.

RC
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
LED runs cool is a misleading statement

LED runs cool is a misleading statement

I've heard this before. My simple question is "What excess heat?" CFLs run much cooler than incandescents. And LEDs even cooler.

Every bit of energy consumed turns into heat, but its a matter of where. LEDs dump considerably more portion of consumed energy through conduction than any other lighting technology.

"LED runs cool" is every bit as misleading as 1,000w water bed is cooler running than a 60W soldering iron.

More accurately, it's a design constraint that must be met in order to not fry delicate LEDs.

LEDs are just like computer chips. They have to be kept cool running with a heat sink in order to not fry them.

Tiny computers like your multimeter and basic phones don't need special thermal consideration. Slightly more power dense devices like your smart phones and lighting LEDs need a passive heat sink like a metal case. You need a huge heat sink or a fan for even higher power density stuff. Huge heat sinks are expensive and fans add another point of failure. Perhaps a significant hesitance to adding a fan is that it bruises the "LED is cool running" image.

Cooling requirement goes up:
as ambient temperature ^, tolerable temperature \/, power dissipation ^.

A 100W light bulb radiates most of consumed energy. Some by convection through internal gas. Very little conducted to socket.

A modern high performance CPU needs to dump about 100W all by conduction with the heat sink getting no hotter than about 160F. If you block the airflow, it burns out or it must performance to reduce heat output. If you remove the fan on a modern computer, it will run at full performance until it reaches the maximum temperature and backs off on performance to hold the temperature.

100W LED SSFLs have to reject like 60W from LEDs, and another 10-15W from directly attached phosphor blend. Of the 25W or so if input power that leaves as radiated energy, some are outside of effective visible spectrum so only about 20-25W is radiated as visible light.

Many consumer LEDs run constant power and burns out if it doesn't get enough cooling. Some takes over dimming control and dims down based on temperature reading. You'll see that Philips 13W = 60W LED bulb advises you not to use in a sealed fixture. It will remain operational in a jelly jar fixture, but after a while it dims down to about 4W to hold the bulb at maximum temperature. That's an extreme example, but you'll see that thing dimming to a level somewhere in between those two even in normal applications. Philips doesn't tell you that the light bulb has a sensor and takes over dimming control to cut performance in order to prevent itself from frying. This kind of protection is great for flash lights or light duty welder that doesn't require continuous duty full output and to protect from abnormal conditions but it should never be used to cover up the inability to handle advertised applications.

Since LEDs have unique vulnerability, there should be an additional validation process for rebates to weed out under performing junk. A latching thermal throttle indicator that remains lit until powered on and off within 5 minutes would be good so that normal running cycle won't reset it.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
I just replaced two 400W MH pole mounted fixtures at my home/office. Tried several to replace the lamps and ballasts - didn't last 6 months.

This week I replaced both with Hubbell 128W LED fixtures. That's nearly 1/4 the wattage! Slick mounting. The old fixtures were bears to remove.

But, why is the old fixtures a generic "400W MH" while the replacement is brand specific?

Please know that such success story is hugely dependent on the poor performance of the old one. Builder grade "one size fits all" MH downward pointing socket with textured plastic ring yard light that replaces the outlawed mercury vapor of the same type is not the benchmark of premium HID lighting system. It would be great if you have before and after daytime photo of the two.


The light output is greater than before, the coverage wider, and much more even. No retrofit could come even close to that.

Personal experience is an important parameter that complements measurable and objective parameters and it would be really helpful if you can provide the latter.

I would never recommend retrofit for so many reasons. My new fixtures have a 5 year warranty. No retro will come close to that, assuming they are still in business after a year or so.
RC

Guarantee is only as good as the guarantor and the devil is in the details. A lot of warranty conditions on products marketed to homeowners and SMBs are designed to close a sale and collect profit upfront with so many bailout terms to protect themselves from liability of the very things they claim to save you from.

Exclusions that exclude failures from normal harsh conditions due to design engineers' failure to consider real world conditions is another thing to watch out for. If I'm sold a glass walls for a batting cage, I can't expect it to withstand a car driving into it, but I expect breakage from balls hitting it covered under warranty. A LOT of electronic ballasts failed from normal power surge in 1990s and household CFL ballasts from overheating. The real world was much harsher than engineers expected. I expect ballasting components of LEDs to be more reliable than older electronic ballasts simply because it's essentially the same design.

Everyone raced into LED retrofit sales game targeting SMBs, because LEDs have been EXTREMELY expensive and it offered high margin upfront and leaving gullible customers with 99% of the risk. It's still a high risk investment with a low return potential. They don't target large businesses since their purchasing team is not that stupid. The ones that do realize it's a gamble. Green, sustainable, renewable power are buzz words. Corporations spend money on something that might not actually save on operation expenses so they can brag about using recycled toilet paper and LED bulbs in locale. They want to earn the business of shoppers who feel those thing are dope. Grocery stores would have significant edge over competitors if they know what people will buy and avoid shortages as well as spoilage losses. It would be a dumb thing to give away if they figure out how.
 
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romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
The old-school boys at Orange Empire Division IAEI don't need no stinking smart phones, or internet links, and I lost their handout hard copy.
Had to search google to find it.
http://www.energymanagertoday.com/ul-warns-on-led-retrofit-safety-0122899/

The 14's 410 tune up did try and address some retrofit issues . But the biggest issue are the 3rd party retrofitters looking low bidder installers under the guise of 'maintenance' , often not requiring license,permits or inspections.

Some states having 'energy' entities have taken this bureaucratic bull by the horns requiring installer certification to obtain the many rebates any retro-ROI is sold on

~RJ~
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Every bit of energy consumed turns into heat,
Hugely less energy is consumed by a LED bulb than an incandescent.


LEDs dump considerably more portion of consumed energy through conduction than any other lighting technology.
But it's a portion of a much smaller amount.

"LED runs cool" is every bit as misleading as 1,000w water bed is cooler running than a 60W soldering iron.
With the greatest respect, that's a bit of a silly analogy. I'm comparing one bulb with another. Not a swimming pool with a car park puddle.
I can cover the illuminated LED bulb with my hand an feel little heat. I would advise against trying that with an incandescent.

More accurately, it's a design constraint that must be met in order to not fry delicate LEDs.
We have been using LEDs on PCBs since before the Dead Sea reported in sick. Of the many thousands fitted we have not had a single failure. Not one.

LEDs are just like computer chips. They have to be kept cool running with a heat sink in order to not fry them.
And have never used heatsinks on them.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Every bit of energy consumed turns into heat, but its a matter of where. LEDs dump considerably more portion of consumed energy through conduction than any other lighting technology.

"LED runs cool" is every bit as misleading as 1,000w water bed is cooler running than a 60W soldering iron.

More accurately, it's a design constraint that must be met in order to not fry delicate LEDs.
.

Even the non-tradesperson can take one look at the heat sinks incorporated into some LED floods and agree on this EL
80W,100W%20LED%20Floodlight%20%20(1).jpg

But my Q is, why do LED dimmers have a completely different rating ? One would think a watt is a watt is a watt....?

~RJ~
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I've heard this before. My simple question is "What excess heat?" CFLs run much cooler than incandescents. And LEDs even cooler.

My halogen garden lights have similar heatsinks that get far to hot to touch.
None of my LED lights are so equipped.

But unless the CFL or LED was designed to be in an enclosed luminaire, what heat it does produce may be enough to effect it's performance and shorten it's useful life. Yes it will still run much cooler overall then the equivalent incandescent that it replaced, but that 50,000 hour expected life may be shortened if it operates above the temperature it was rated for.
 
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