- Location
- Massachusetts
You may want to heed that advice as well.
From the OP
That is the topic, there really should be no discussion of ballasts, heat, florescent fixtures, incandescent lamps etc,
Which is better? LED fixture replacement or LED retrofit?
- Thread starter wirenut1980
- Start date
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You may want to heed that advice as well.
From the OP
That is the topic, there really should be no discussion of ballasts, heat, florescent fixtures, incandescent lamps etc,
I thought I had pretty much.
Surely these are pertinent issues? Where is the LED going to be retrofitted or what technology is it going to replace?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
That I do agree with, if the question is which is better, then why is it better has got to factor into the answer.
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
Agree, and post #28 addressed some of the why.
Maybe a pros/cons thing:
Pros for new fixture:
~ Designed to maximize use of LED bulb light output and dissipate heat
~ All new fixtures dont have broken/missing/aged parts
~ An entire new fixture eliminates the chance that it's just a lamp out in the old
~ Do not have to be rewired, using the original ballast, or bypassing/converting to line voltage
~ Have a warranty and is the better option of the two
Cons:
~ Much more expensive than just a drop-in bulb (parts)
~ May not be needed if existing fixtures are/were well maintained and not very old
~ Will not match the look of the existing, which can be an eyesore
Pros for retrofit:
~ Cheaper than new fixture
~ Likely to be a substantial net gain in light over the old fixture (i.e. "good enough")
Cons for retrofit:
~ May void original UL listing of the fixture
~ May not fit if more than a bulb (new reflector)
~ You're stuck with half EOL parts in existing fixture. I would not warranty the install past parts for that reason
~ Depending on the design, it could take considerably longer to modify/rewire/repair the existing fixture than to replace it
~ There's numerous retrofit designs: drop-in bulbs that use the original ballast, line voltage, etc. which leads to
~ Possible incompatibility issues with existing ballast. This seems more prevalent with fluorescents than HPS/MH fixtures.
~ Assumes all existing fixtures have factory ballast or properly matched replacements in the first place. You know what they say about assumption...
Good summary if I may say so. Just to be clear here, I am not batting for one side or the other. Obviously, if the fixtures are in poor shape they should be replaced anyway whatever lighting technology is used.
The rewire bit I don't get. We've used LED indicators on PCBs since Adam was a boy. Typically to show that power supplies were up and running, relays were energised, fault status etc.
Just a dropper resistor required.
And for panel indicator lamps. Power on, stopped, running, and various faults. These directly replaced the 22mm dia filament bulbs we had used previously. Same supply voltage (usually 110Vac but sometimes 24Vdc) and at a fraction of the cost.
Those LED unitsI have at home fit in the same BC socket as the incadescents and CFLs did. No mods required. Just much lower running costs.And much cooler.
Electric-Light
Senior Member
There's a blurring line somewhere.
A well done retrofit can parallel a fixture with the only thing being retrofit is piggy backing on the existing fixture for mechanical support or electrical connection. A trim retrofit for example is a retrofit, yet it's 75% of the way to a new fixture with an Edison socket/pigtail.
On the other hand, there are so called fixtures that carry over all the weaknesses of typical drop-in replacements and permanently crammed into a fixture.
Light sensors are not imaging sensors and while they give average foot candles, they ignore glare or cast hard shadows or multi faceted shadows.
LED ballasts can and do fail and with many products coming and going and resellers spawning and dying all the time, getting replacement LED ballast can be difficult. The fixture may be irreparable depending on the design.
Threadstarter should post the make and model of the fixtures in mind.
A well done retrofit can parallel a fixture with the only thing being retrofit is piggy backing on the existing fixture for mechanical support or electrical connection. A trim retrofit for example is a retrofit, yet it's 75% of the way to a new fixture with an Edison socket/pigtail.
On the other hand, there are so called fixtures that carry over all the weaknesses of typical drop-in replacements and permanently crammed into a fixture.
Light sensors are not imaging sensors and while they give average foot candles, they ignore glare or cast hard shadows or multi faceted shadows.
LED ballasts can and do fail and with many products coming and going and resellers spawning and dying all the time, getting replacement LED ballast can be difficult. The fixture may be irreparable depending on the design.
Threadstarter should post the make and model of the fixtures in mind.
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I'm sure you have a point.
I have made mine with specific examples.
Electric-Light
Senior Member
The cost of LEDs are constantly changing but LED elements are by far the most significant expense in LED SSFL fixtures.
Traditional consumer CFLs are "integral ballast lamps" and this is true whether they're based on discharge or LED SSFL. Ballast failure is quite common with either and the entire integral ballast lamp (like CFL, or compact SSFL) or the fixture module (like a trim) is discarded if anything fails.
Something like a Feit shop light is a non-serviceable luminaire made of a pair of bare T8 LED SSFLs bracketed together on the ends with LED ballast and cord connection assembled into one of the ends without sockets. The difference between this and drop-in TLED is that if anything goes wrong, you throw the whole thing out. Ballast bypass lamps are integral ballast socketed lamps like consumer CFLs.
When you're looking at triple digit watt of commercial application LEDs, it's too expensive to throw out LED elements for a ballast failure or throw out ballast for premature LED fading. Expensive Cree street fixtures have a bottom access hatch that lets you change out failed LED ballast with the ease of battery replacement, but the ballast is still proprietary and requires factory part.
If the power supply goes out in your office computer, it's easy to replace as long as you have the replacement. A standard ATX type is easy to find. The manufacturer specific one used in compact computers today will leave you without a computer for days unless you have spares or you have service agreement with a provider that keeps that power unit as truck stock. If replacement power unit becomes unavailable due to obsolescence or company going out of business, you're out a computer. This is something to keep in mind when buying LED fixtures.
Traditional consumer CFLs are "integral ballast lamps" and this is true whether they're based on discharge or LED SSFL. Ballast failure is quite common with either and the entire integral ballast lamp (like CFL, or compact SSFL) or the fixture module (like a trim) is discarded if anything fails.
Something like a Feit shop light is a non-serviceable luminaire made of a pair of bare T8 LED SSFLs bracketed together on the ends with LED ballast and cord connection assembled into one of the ends without sockets. The difference between this and drop-in TLED is that if anything goes wrong, you throw the whole thing out. Ballast bypass lamps are integral ballast socketed lamps like consumer CFLs.
When you're looking at triple digit watt of commercial application LEDs, it's too expensive to throw out LED elements for a ballast failure or throw out ballast for premature LED fading. Expensive Cree street fixtures have a bottom access hatch that lets you change out failed LED ballast with the ease of battery replacement, but the ballast is still proprietary and requires factory part.
If the power supply goes out in your office computer, it's easy to replace as long as you have the replacement. A standard ATX type is easy to find. The manufacturer specific one used in compact computers today will leave you without a computer for days unless you have spares or you have service agreement with a provider that keeps that power unit as truck stock. If replacement power unit becomes unavailable due to obsolescence or company going out of business, you're out a computer. This is something to keep in mind when buying LED fixtures.
- Location
- Massachusetts
The thread starter stated 1,000 watt HPS site lighting from the start so all this talk about fluorescents, indoor lighting etc is off topic.
Personally I have replaced at least a 100 site pole HPS or MH fixtures with LED. In every case we used new fixtures and as an installer I am thankful for that.
The customers have been happy with the results and I expect them to last a long time.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Try to get back on topic, CFLs and computers have nothing to do with this thread
Except in the sense that CFLs were a stepping stone between incandescents and LEDs. Or HPS or MH for that matter which seem to have been mentioned here.
Electric-Light
Senior Member
LED ballasts share the same weaknesses as all other electronic power supplies/ballasts and their lack of standardization makes locating mechanically and electrically compatible service replacement difficult.
I am only relating it to computers to those who may find it easier to understand. Knowing the replacement ballast spec is important. If the only available spec is "our part # only" and do not provide acceptable setting or type to use, its going to be a problem when there's a failure.
We can't answer that without assuming that all HPS luminaires that take 1,000w lamps are the same and all LED based products that tout "equivalent to 1,000w" are identical.
the variation is much more significant on the latter and having the make and model # on the LED fixture under consideration is quite helpful.
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Electric-Light
Senior Member
I was wrong about helium cooled LEDs not having a ballast. After reading this, I realized those have a ballast too, therefore are not immune from LED ballast failure.
http://blog.spitzenpfeil.org/wordpr...-led-bulb-teardown-filamented-led-light-bulb/
ramsy
Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Nice article. A 120vac version recently found locally shows a 2200 Kelvin, and ~200 lumen per watt product, but no Color Rendering Index (CRI). The OEM site shows little to no info, so your article was very timely. Thank you.
wirenut1980
Senior Member
- Location
- Plainfield, IN
Thank you all for the responses. I will recommend to go with the new LED lighting fixture over the retro-fit. A couple options that were quoted to me for new fixture were Atlas LED (sorry no model number given to me), and Lithonia KAX2 LED. Does anyone have experience with either of these? If so, good or bad?
Thanks again! :thumbsup:
Thanks again! :thumbsup:
I have experienced no such difficulties with those I replaced in my house. Form and fit were identical. Likewise in the 22mm units in the industrial panels.
And, to date after several decades in operation, not one single reported failure.
Electric-Light
Senior Member
You're talking about mW class indicator LEDs that is used with a series resistor ballast. It's not until the last five years or so that complex LED ballasts ("control gear" on your side of the pond) based on the switch mode design started showing up.
Linear powre supplies with no active components on primary side are very durable. A bad linear wall adaptre is almost unheard of discounting wire or plug damage. They're quite uncommon these days due to their inefficiency and shipping cost. SMPS aren't quite that bullet proof and experience sudden failures unheard of for mains frequency based transformre based units. It's not just LED ballasts. Phone chargres, computre powre units, LED/fluorescent/vapour lamp control gear have failures and they fail much the same way.
Not so for my domestic lighting.
ramsy
Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Local Electrical suppliers have a rolling "Line Card" of OEM's and re-sellers that peddle these products. In my area LA Lighting can FAB hi CRI models for Auto Dealerships, and several other OEM's have off the shelf models with photo sensors, and other energy code requirements listed for Utility rebates.
ramsy
Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
I believe Besoeker's account of reliable 25yr old LED domestic-lighting product could be accurate, in the UK, as astonishingly unbelievable it may appear for many of us.
In countries where consumer protection is public policy, not yet eviscerated by conservative funding cuts, Class-Action lawsuits against manufacturers of exploding automobiles, or spontaneous-combusting appliances, are rarely needed to force consumer protections.
That means in some Euro-Zone markets, especially in the UK, shoddy products bypassing standards, warranty failures, or other hazards may be banned long before most consumers would encounter them.
I believe consumers in the America's modify domestic building wiring to accommodate European appliances, because our American manufactures have made an art form of engineering products that fail the day after warranty expires.
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