Why is Knoxville and East Tennessee exempt from following the NEC?

[Hv&Lv]

"If you learn the electrical trade in an area that doesn't use or allow SEU for services, you probably find it disgusting, if you learn the trade in the area where it's common, you probably think it's perfectly fine......"

This is exactly what I mean by a "lame" thought process! What on earth don't you all understand about the word "National"? Everywhere within the 50 States is "National". Electrical work should look the same and be done the same, strictly by the NEC everywhere in the USA. The NEC is essentially a law book and if one cannot follow it, they ought to be fined, jailed, and/or put out of business, period. When I am performing electrical work I pretend that there is an inspector watching my every move.

When I do my service work, I sometimes could be putting my life on the line and when I leave, I have forever put other people's lives on the line. I have wired hundreds of homes and buildings, meaning that my work is now responsible for thousands of lives for as long as those structures exist. "Electricians" that cannot think that way no matter where in the USA they are, should not be electricians. There's no valid excuse for poor workmanship and code violations by anyone that considers themselves to be an actual electrician. I don't see how this can even be debatable by any licensed electrician. (And you're not an electrician until you obtain a state license.)

The NEC is nothing but a book until it is accepted by individual states, with amendments and changes as states see fit.
just because it contains the word “National” means nothing. It is a word in a title.
The NEC is a huge money maker for the NFPA, which is a private company.

If the US or individual states wanted to make up their own codes they are within their rights. The NEC is convenient allowing the government to spend on other things besides making electric codes.

I’m also confident in two things
I‘m confident you wouldn’t have that attitude if they did fine, jail or put you out of business. I’m also confident you have some type of infraction in your work.
We all have at some point.

 

[roger]

As Hv&Lv points out, the NEC is not a law, a location adopting it is voluntary and many that have adopted have amended it.

Roger

 

[K8MHZ]

As Hv&Lv points out, the NEC is not a law, a location adopting it is voluntary and many that have adopted have amended it.

Roger

Michigan has their own electrical code which references most of the NEC but not all. We don't have to use AFCI in dwellings, and we totally ignore Art. 547, for instance. But the NEC on it's own is not the law in Michigan.

 

[kwired]

Yup, there ya go. The red/blue thing is really just about a few hot button issues. You would think there would be a lot more red states that wouldn't have licensing and all this permitting.... Never understood that.

Here electrical licensing and permits/inspections is statewide thing. But build a new house in the rural areas and about the only thing that gets inspected is electrical. You likely need a building permit for almost anything these days but most the time that is for zoning issues, they don't look at structural integrity or anything like that on a dwelling. Fire and other safety codes will get looked at by state fire marshal on public access buildings.

Agriculture buildings never used to be an issue either until about mid 1990's, when many livestock operations started to grow from a few dozen head to a few hundred head and people got concerned about environmental issues related to those operations. Now you need conditional use permits for about anything other than "hobby operations" such as a dozen chickens for your own laying hens or a cow or two for your own milk needs and such.

 

[James L]

Here electrical licensing and permits/inspections is statewide thing. But build a new house in the rural areas and about the only thing that gets inspected is electrical....

I remember when I was married back in the 90s oh, we went to Kearney because her parents had just bought a brand new house that was built by either high schoolers or Vo-Tech students (can't remember)

Anyway, I went in the basement and I was horrified with the HVAC. The house was built using I-joists, and somebody had cut out a 7 inch diameter hole right in the middle across 4 or 5 joists so they could run to a register through instead of under

I couldn't believe it passed

 

[kwired]

Why you say....
I must say coming from a blue state. Most contractors and inspectors who take pride in doing the right job I know are of the red persuasion and go with the whole permit and licensing thing. It gets rid of the riff raff. The blue municipality building department employees and licensing are of the blue looking for the permit and licensing fee money.

Not political cause we're not going there right?
Just my observation.

I myself sort of don't like many the rules that have been set. They make you learn to use the code they have adopted, test you to show you know how to use it before issuing your license, make you attend a certain amount of continued education over the years so you can keep up with things whether you know that content or not. That is probably fine. But then big brother wants to see everything you do because he apparently still doesn't trust that you know what you are doing?

I understand the other side of this is just trying to assure safety to others, but I think they sometimes are a little overkill. Most things I do that won't be inspected will likely pass an inspection anyway, it is just the thought of big brother not trusting you without wanting to see about as much as possible that I feel is ridiculous at times and the occasional twisting the rules when they aren't crystal clear to the way they want to see it.

 

[kwired]

As Hv&Lv points out, the NEC is not a law, a location adopting it is voluntary and many that have adopted have amended it.

Roger

And also why some are on 2020, some on 2017 maybe even some still on 2011.

Some authority must go through whatever legal process applies to them and officially get it into their lawbooks before it is a law.

If it were nationwide they would determine this in DC, and who knows what we would have for a code if you let them at it. It probably would be something hidden in some thousand page bill that has some other main topic of interest though.

 

[electrofelon]

I remember when I was married back in the 90s oh, we went to Kearney because her parents had just bought a brand new house that was built by either high schoolers or Vo-Tech students (can't remember)

Anyway, I went in the basement and I was horrified with the HVAC. The house was built using I-joists, and somebody had cut out a 7 inch diameter hole right in the middle across 4 or 5 joists so they could run to a register through instead of under

I couldn't believe it passed

Actually believe it or not that probably was fine. If you look at the allowable holes information from the manufacturer of those wooden I joists, you may be surprised what you can do. I specifically remember one time I was checking the allowed holes spec sheet and it specifically saying that the entire web can be removed, I think it just couldn't be within a few feet of the ends.

 

[electrofelon]

"If you learn the electrical trade in an area that doesn't use or allow SEU for services, you probably find it disgusting, if you learn the trade in the area where it's common, you probably think it's perfectly fine......"

This is exactly what I mean by a "lame" thought process! What on earth don't you all understand about the word "National"? Everywhere within the 50 States is "National". Electrical work should look the same and be done the same, strictly by the NEC everywhere in the USA. The NEC is essentially a law book and if one cannot follow it, they ought to be fined, jailed, and/or put out of business, period. When I am performing electrical work I pretend that there is an inspector watching my every move.

When I do my service work, I sometimes could be putting my life on the line and when I leave, I have forever put other people's lives on the line. I have wired hundreds of homes and buildings, meaning that my work is now responsible for thousands of lives for as long as those structures exist. "Electricians" that cannot think that way no matter where in the USA they are, should not be electricians. There's no valid excuse for poor workmanship and code violations by anyone that considers themselves to be an actual electrician. I don't see how this can even be debatable by any licensed electrician. (And you're not an electrician until you obtain a state license.)

I wanted to make some more comments here, just so you are clear on what am I I am saying and not saying. This started because we got talking about states that have licensing and permitting versus states that do not have licensing and permitting. It seems you are making the assumption that the areas with licensing and permitting will guarantee better work, safer work, and less hacks. That's certainly seems like a reasonable and logical assumption, and clearly many states agree with you,. However I just have not really seen much evidence that that is the case. In making my case, consider the following:

1. I think for the most part, people want to do a good job and take pride in their work and are not just looking to cut corners at every possible opportunity.

2. Generally getting an electrical license is not particularly hard, and there will be hacks both with and without licenses.

3. Even in highly regulated areas, there will still be unpermitted work, particularly in smaller jobs. I'm pretty sure even most legitimate contractors don't get permits for jobs below a certain size like adding a few circuits.

4. inspectors have limited time and can realistically only look at a fraction of the work, and in my experience they rarely look at the "nuts and bolts" of an installation and are typically looking at things like labeling, load calcs and other things which I don't really think add much safety.

5. I think I like the idea better of some sort of third-party accreditation or certification that electricians can get if they desire,. And also third-party electrical inspections that an owner can request. That's the way it typically is here in upstate New York, even if you are doing a job where there is no permit, you can always get a third party electrical inspection if you or the client desires.

 

[hillbilly1]

A good percentage of requiring permits is tax revenue. Not the cost of the permit, but the increase in value of the taxable property.

 

[kwired]

I wanted to make some more comments here, just so you are clear on what am I I am saying and not saying. This started because we got talking about states that have licensing and permitting versus states that do not have licensing and permitting. It seems you are making the assumption that the areas with licensing and permitting will guarantee better work, safer work, and less hacks. That's certainly seems like a reasonable and logical assumption, and clearly many states agree with you,. However I just have not really seen much evidence that that is the case. In making my case, consider the following:

1. I think for the most part, people want to do a good job and take pride in their work and are not just looking to cut corners at every possible opportunity.

2. Generally getting an electrical license is not particularly hard, and there will be hacks both with and without licenses.

3. Even in highly regulated areas, there will still be unpermitted work, particularly in smaller jobs. I'm pretty sure even most legitimate contractors don't get permits for jobs below a certain size like adding a few circuits.

4. inspectors have limited time and can realistically only look at a fraction of the work, and in my experience they rarely look at the "nuts and bolts" of an installation and are typically looking at things like labeling, load calcs and other things which I don't really think add much safety.

5. I think I like the idea better of some sort of third-party accreditation or certification that electricians can get if they desire,. And also third-party electrical inspections that an owner can request. That's the way it typically is here in upstate New York, even if you are doing a job where there is no permit, you can always get a third party electrical inspection if you or the client desires.

Third party can be be good or bad as well though.

Though I must say I have a food products manufacturing client, and their third party certification companies they have had are much stricter about a lot of things than USDA or FDA is. This be companies that more less give a report card to those that buy their products.

 

[electrofelon]

A good percentage of requiring permits is tax revenue. Not the cost of the permit, but the increase in value of the taxable property.

god point. IT provides a relatively easy way to get property value increases to the assessor's office.

Third party can be be good or bad as well though.

Though I must say I have a food products manufacturing client, and their third party certification companies they have had are much stricter about a lot of things than USDA or FDA is. This be companies that more less give a report card to those that buy their products.

True, an argument can be made for both. One perspective may be that the government inspectors are more neutral, whereas a private 3rd party agency is a business that could be more lax to get more inspections. It is true here that there are many third party inspectors I could call and contractors certainly will probably not be calling the strict hard-ass guy if they can get a more lax guy......

 

[James L]

A good percentage of requiring permits is tax revenue. Not the cost of the permit, but the increase in value of the taxable property.

Got that right

 

[jmellc]

It's like substandard becomes the baseline norm so the definition of substandard keeps moving to further extremes. People get jaded and get used to "nothing has happened yet, it's been there for 20 years with no problem". I have seen such splices countless times, along with Romex entering a box with no connectors, no cover on the box, etc. Customers usually wouldn't pay to fix the stuff because the lights still worked. Some inspectors may get jaded too and discover that it's easier to hang around the office than go out and do something.

I was first taught that on a rewire, you could enter a panel without a connector when fishing a wall. Same guys taught me to never go into a j box without a connector but at that time, snap in connectors were hard to find & it was rarely doable to drill a large enough hole in floorboard to pass through a Romex with a connector on it. No one wanted to cut wall along panel edge either. I was fortunate to lean other ways soon afterward, but that was sort of a given at that time & place.

 

[jmellc]

god point. IT provides a relatively easy way to get property value increases to the assessor's office.


True, an argument can be made for both. One perspective may be that the government inspectors are more neutral, whereas a private 3rd party agency is a business that could be more lax to get more inspections. It is true here that there are many third party inspectors I could call and contractors certainly will probably not be calling the strict hard-ass guy if they can get a more lax guy......

Makes me think of UL. I have seen a lot of UL labels on products that were junk. Enough money will buy you a UL label whereas a little guy could have a better, safer product with no hope of getting it approved.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Makes me think of UL. I have seen a lot of UL labels on products that were junk. Enough money will buy you a UL label whereas a little guy could have a better, safer product with no hope of getting it approved.

If there is listed junk, it is because the listing standard permits junk. The product listing standards spell out the product safety requirements and the testing that the listing agency must do to list a product to that standard.

 

[retirede]

If there is listed junk, it is because the listing standard permits junk. The product listing standards spell out the product safety requirements and the testing that the listing agency must do to list a product to that standard.

“Junk” can mean a lot of different things.
It’s possible for a device to be listed for safety and be perfectly safe, yet be so poorly designed for the intended use that it fails in short order, hence “junk.”

Listing is an indication of safety, not durability or longevity.

 

[jmellc]

“Junk” can mean a lot of different things.
It’s possible for a device to be listed for safety and be perfectly safe, yet be so poorly designed for the intended use that it fails in short order, hence “junk.”

Listing is an indication of safety, not durability or longevity.

I've seen UL labels on equipment that had reverse hot and neutral connections to pilot lights; had line to screw shell & neutral to pin. Seen loose ground screws. Seen junction boxes so small they wouldn't meet code if we used them for anything.

UL is mainly a money racket with safety as their buzz word.

 

[Fred B]

I've seen UL labels on equipment that had reverse hot and neutral connections to pilot lights; had line to screw shell & neutral to pin. Seen loose ground screws. Seen junction boxes so small they wouldn't meet code if we used them for anything.

UL is mainly a money racket with safety as their buzz word.

UL is on the design. Individual mfg failures in production of equipment is a failure in workmanship not necessarily of the UL listing.
Size of the jbox used, that is a pain, but I don't think NEC regulates directly UL, look at just wire sizes used compared for amperage requirements in the NEC for building wiring, we'd never be able to install wire as small as mfg does in equipment.
PS. I also believe that if a mfg intentionally alters a product from the listed design, UL can rescind it listing of the product.

 

[retirede]

I've seen UL labels on equipment that had reverse hot and neutral connections to pilot lights; had line to screw shell & neutral to pin. Seen loose ground screws. Seen junction boxes so small they wouldn't meet code if we used them for anything.

UL is mainly a money racket with safety as their buzz word.

My point was not to defend UL.

Some people see a UL label and think it means quality when that’s not the intention at all. It’s only supposed to mean it was tested to a safety standard.