Why should hire an electrican?

electricmanscott · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
are we saying that since the work was done horribly by another person and you are redoing the work you are free to overcharge. It seems that for the rough your rate is $87.50 and finish is $45.00. Why the discrepancy?

Click to expand...

I do not understand, as long as the customer is aware of the rate ahead of time what's the problem?

True enough I was just wondering if the higher rate was set out of spite or not, More of an ethical question than anything else. A complete different thread for sure.

tshea · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

peter d said:

I know a lot of HVAC guys and plumbers think they can do electrical work but they are some of the most dangerous hacks out there from what I've seen.

Not half as bad as some of the carpenters & fireman who think thay know what their doing.
Had one run zip wire to the bathroom light fixtures.
Had a fireman do the same thing--job security?

Both jobs --NO PERMIT!

Fixed everything--with a permit.

electricaldoc · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by davedottcom:
Damn...this guy was listed as the EC on the permit? How is that even possible? The HVAC guys can't even pull their own T-Stat wire in FL! (Unless they have an Electrical License too)

Dave

It depends on state in Indiana anyone can be an electrician. Any one can wire a house. It is just that if you plan to do it as general contractor. Then you must pass masters test. In my county the electrical inspector is a plumber and he will ask you "is it done to code?" if you say yes you pass.

highkvoltage · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

The higher rate is because rewiring someone else's work is alot harder then starting for scratch. Finish is the same. I believe in making money but never take advanage of the situation.

[ July 10, 2005, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: highkvoltage ]

peter d · Jul 10, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by electricaldoc:
In my county the electrical inspector is a plumber and he will ask you "is it done to code?" if you say yes you pass.

Wow, that sounds like a tough inspection. :roll:

LarryFine · Jul 11, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by bradleyelectric:
My brother called me from Big Blue the other day wanting to know what size wire he needs to wire a new service panel for his house in Richmond.

Brad, I'm in Richmond. I'd be happy to do a quick look-see at no charge for him if you'd like me to. Let me know if you're interested. My number is

{Moderator's Note: Edited to remove personal contact information. If you wish to contact this person, thne begin by sending a Private Message.}

[ July 11, 2005, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]

bthielen · Jul 11, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

The higher rate is because rewiring someone else's work is alot harder then starting for scratch. Finish is the same. I believe in making money but never take advanage of the situation.

I'm sorry but I must disagree that you ARE in fact taking advantage, based on this statement. This job will naturally take longer and since your rates are hourly you'll be paid for the extra time.

My gosh, I wish I could get paid a higher rate when I have to work harder! Fact is, in industry today the more labor intensive a job becomes the less one is likely paid. Consider the laborers on a construction crew or even your crew if you are self-employed. My guess is they do most of the manual grunt work and probably get paid the least, compared to the pencil pushers in their air-conditioned offices. Taking advantage of someone's incompetence or your expertise is nothing short of unethical.

Sorry for being so harsh but darn it, this is the very "mightier than thou" attitude that discourages DIYers from hiring professionals in the first place. He was most certainly wrong in what he did and he'll pay for it...and hopefully learn something.

Bob

electricmanscott · Jul 11, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by highkvoltage:
The higher rate is because rewiring someone else's work is alot harder then starting for scratch. Finish is the same. I believe in making money but never take advanage of the situation.

Uh oh. Story isn't checking out.

I had the home owner tear it all out

Sounds like you started from scratch to me.

arjo_reich · Jul 12, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by bradleyelectric:
My brother called me from Big Blue the other day wanting to know what size wire he needs to wire a new service panel for his house in Richmond. Seems they let him pull a home owner permit to redo the service. This was the first I've heard of it. He's an IT tech, with no electrical experience.

I am a Software Engineer.
I just pulled a permit to rewire my entire house, top to bottom, removing all existing wiring. I am also upgrading my service from a 100 AMP to a 200 AMP service.

I however, have read the 2005 NEC once through and refer to it constantly. I have serveral other DIY books that I use for picture reference and then confirm their statements against current NEC as they are often outdated.

I am also smart enough to only do the rough-in myself. The new service and the energizing of the system will be left to a local master electrician as I am not comfortable with anything greater than 120v and even then I have a healthy respect for it.

--
Just for the record, that is...

R. Joe Reich

charlie b · Jul 12, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by arjo_reich: I am a Software Engineer. . . . I however, have read the 2005 NEC once through and refer to it constantly. I have several other DIY books that I use for picture reference and then confirm their statements against current NEC as they are often outdated.

I have posted this before, and I may again. All members may feel free to quote at will; I do not claim a copyright. Here it is:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The one electrical concept that is least well understood by the ?do it yourself person,? indeed it is seldom even perceived by the DIY, is this:

IF you finish the job without yourself having suffered any injury,

AND IF when you turn it on, there are no sparks,

AND IF the thing you installed appears to work (i.e., the light goes on or the motor spins),

THEN it is still very wrong to conclude that the job was done safely!

There may still be a safety hazard, just waiting for an unfortunate person to touch the wrong thing under the wrong circumstances. It may take years before the problem makes itself known. You may have moved by then, and may never learn of the error that you made.

The biggest advantage of having a professional do the work is that you never have to wonder what is lurking behind the wall.

highkvoltage · Jul 12, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Any time you have go in and repair some elses work you will have a much higher burden rate to cover. (Burden rate = cost of doing business. You have to cover these extra cost. I live by the rule I am working to build my business not just a paycheck. In the long term I will still be around the paycheck guys will be long gone. It's basic business and I believe the high cost per hour is more than justify.

southernboys · Jul 12, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Got to say congrats to anyone who can read through the nec one time and understand everything it says. Ive been in the trade 5 years now and still do not claim to know everything in the nec. Just because you read the nec does not mean you know how to wire a house. so in conclusion I would strongly suggest you hire a electrician. If I get a call from a customer that says hey I roughed everything in will you come and do my service for me my answear would be pointblank no chance in hell

arjo_reich · Jul 12, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by southernboys:
Got to say congrats to anyone who can read through the nec one time and understand everything it says. Ive been in the trade 5 years now and still do not claim to know everything in the nec. Just because you read the nec does not mean you know how to wire a house. so in conclusion I would strongly suggest you hire a electrician. If I get a call from a customer that says hey I roughed everything in will you come and do my service for me my answear would be pointblank no chance in hell

That's not quite fair, I never claimed to know everything within the NEC. I only stated that I had read it cover-to-cover once through. Whether in this thread or another, I'm sure I've mentioned that I refer back to it - as well as several other illustrated guides - as a constant resource.

As far as the electrician, he is a close friend of my father's and I worked out this arrangement in advance.

I have been lurking on this board for some time now trying to soak up everything I can as I planned this project.

While I don't plan to start work until 08/01/2005 on the project, I have already obtained the permit and have nearly completed the wiring diagrams[1].

I understand that it will take me longer, be more difficult and likely cost me more than to hire an electrician to do the entire job.

---
All that said and done, I welcome constructive criticism. I do not appreciate, however, blanket statements that it is impossible for me to do this job correctly because I did not join the IBEW apprenticeship program 10 years ago when I graduated from high school. A program, by the way, seems to takes about a years worth of interviews to get in and they seem to give a preferential treatment to low-income recent high-school grads and not people contemplating career changes.

<shrug>
I should have just kept lurking...

[1]
Screenie of my rough-draft wiring diagram
http://www.cannedcode.com/joe.reich/house/downloads/electrical.jpg

mikeames · Jul 12, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Hes probably not a professional HVAC Tech either. Just a handyman scaming people. He would dentistry if he had an office.

bthielen · Jul 13, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Joe,

You said a mouthful. I too am not a licensed electrician. Does that make me any less capable than one that is? I think not! I can read the NEC too although it may take me a little longer. The fact is, personal wiring projects that I have completed on my home and had inspected have received rave reviews by the inspectors. I have been inspected a dozen times by at least three different individuals over the years and all of them have paid me high complements. The last inspection I received I was told that my work ranked above most local contractors. I'm not tooting my horn here only sharing the facts.

Gentlemen and ladies,

The fact is, a license does not guarantee better quality, safer end result, or higher value. The license is nothing more than a document that specifies that the individual named has obtained a certain level of training and has met the minimum requirements of that training. That is all.

In my profession, I have worked side-by-side with electrical engineers that could not grasp the work I do. This doesn't make me any better than they nor does it degrade their credentials. It only adds validity to my argument that practical hands-on experience is equally valuable to book smarts.

One of the engineers I am referring to recently told me he took his master's exam. (he does not own any electrician's license) In Minnesota an EE is qualified to take the Master's exam even though he/she does not carry a journeyman's license. If I understand correctly, for me to pursue a Master's license in my state would require a minimum 4 years of experience or qualifying schooling/experience to obtain a journeyman's license and then after a couple years additional experience I may qualify for the master's exam. What makes an EE more qualified to own a master's license without hands-on experience?

The point I'm trying to make here is let's get off the idea that only a license makes one qualified. This is not always true.

I also agree that in most cases, the DIYer is not qualified to do their own electrical work however, I also believe that Joe has shown that he does the research just as any licensed electrician would be required to do. An inspector might miss something he does but let's face it, my guess is there are licensed electricians that have developed relationships with their local inspectors that afford them the ability to cut a few corners now and then. And even a mistake that is made by a licensed electrician is just as dangerous and potentially deadly as any mistake made by a nonlicensed individual.

Bob

physis · Jul 13, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Well, I'll stick my butt out too.

First, arjo_reich isn't a typical DIYer. I've exchanged a couple of PM's with him and without getting into anything the was said privately without his permission, his interests are'nt to merely remodel his house cheap and steal information from professionals.

I have to echo the sentiments of bthielen, I've seen plenty of licensed hack work in my short time in the industry. I'd further say that the license has a lot more to do with tax generation than it does safty.

Not to say that you can just buy a copy of the NEC and be up to speed in even a year. And also there's a tendency for people to believe they have a grasp of things before they actually do. But that doesn't mean that his endeavor can't approached inteligently and thoughtfully.

How many of you have helpers doing unchecked work everyday who are barely qualified to cash their paychecks?

arjo_reich · Jul 13, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by physis:
Well, I'll stick my butt out too.

First, arjo_reich isn't a typical DIYer. I've exchanged a couple of PM's with him and without getting into anything the was said privately without his permission, his interests are'nt to merely remodel his house cheap and steal information from professionals.

My first post...

Back when I first joined the board I was seeking advice on how to proceed towards a career change into the electrical field.

Specifically into the low-voltage home-automation and home theatre business but I want to be a total solution provider which meant finding a way to become a licensed electrician for residential.

Since then I've been constantly reviewing all the materials I can get my hands on as well as trying to find a way to make it work financially. Currently my solution for that is to convince my soon-to-be wife to start making about x3 her current salary so I can take the large paycut required for apprenticeship wages.

[ July 13, 2005, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: arjo_reich ]

George Stolz · Jul 13, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Hey Joe,

You need a second Small Appliance Branch Circuit on your countertops.
You dishwasher and disposal cannot be fed from those countertop circuits.
You probably need a receptacle on the other side of the range, that counter looks a foot wide.
I'd put your smokes on the blue AFCI circuit. Kinda pointless to put them on their own.
Are you doing all your lighting in #12? Ug.

Good luck.

As for the DIY'er NEC scholar debate, I read the NEC through at six months in and understood practically nothing. Reading it with experience makes a world of difference. License or no.

arjo_reich · Jul 14, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Hey Joe,


You need a second Small Appliance Branch Circuit on your countertops.

You dishwasher and disposal cannot be fed from those countertop circuits.

You probably need a receptacle on the other side of the range, that counter looks a foot wide.

I'd put your smokes on the blue AFCI circuit. Kinda pointless to put them on their own.

Are you doing all your lighting in #12? Ug.

Good luck.

The basement and garage wiring diagrams still need to be created and based on various suggestion that you and others have made I have to alter the first floor's diagram a little more as well.

I've had two other people tell me that the disposal and diswasher couldn't be fed from the SA branches as well, but I cannot find an article reference to that effect. I'm looking at 210.52 (B)(1) -- 210.52 (B)(3) as reference. Still it's not a bad idea to have them on their own circuit.

Whomever wired the last place I was in put the furnance and the dishwasher on the same 15 AMP circuit. God, there were several winter nights I wish I had *his* number.

I thought - maybe a manufacturer suggestion - to have the smokes on a isolated circuit for their only purpose.

As for 20 AMPs everywhere. Future expandability and it was just easier to buy large supplies of 12/2, 12/3 and 20 AMP circuits.

--
Give me the weekend to revise the diagram and I'll let you all tear at it again.

BTW, I *really* appreciate the feedback

bthielen · Jul 14, 2005

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

George,

You were quite generous with the "how-to" information. Even considering my previous argument this type of information is still priveledged, is it not? As much as I would appreciate it myself, I do respect the professionals out there and should I ask a question of this nature I expect to be shut down. Clarify a code question for me or help me understand some theory but to tell me how to do something IMHO is not fair to those that have put in the expense and time to obtain the licenses required.

On the other hand, perhaps you are just trying to point out how much is not known or understood and how intricate even a residential project can be. It just might be Joe, that an electrician would be a good idea.

Bob

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