Why should hire an electrican?

[physis]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

this type of information is still privileged

I know I'm going against a lot people who also believe this. But oh well.

I think there is a reasonable concern for sharing this kind of information with untrained individuals because there is a definite possibility of some one being injured or killed as a result of miss applying whatever information they've come away with. A novice may even be convinced they've done a perfectly safe installation and in reality has created a dangerous condition.

But to say that the information is privileged based essentially on only selfishness, I completely disagree with. If we don't learn from those who know we'll be reinventing the wheel forever. The knowledge that electricians have isn't owned by them in any regard beyond the fact that they know it. It's legally and readily available.

That's a completely different idea than sending somebody off with just enough information to hurt somebody.

I do agree it's best that people go through comprehensive training. And that we should be very careful in giving people information.

I don't agree that electrical knowledge belongs only to electricians and EC's to be horded away as exclusively theirs.

Now I'm gonna go hide behind my couch.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

well said.

 

[southernboys]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

George being that he has a dr with its own ckt would that not count for his 2nd sa ckt. My question is I thought the sa ckt had to be protected by gfi. However I can not find this requirement

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

The SA circuit doesn't have to have GFCI protection, but the kitchen countertop receptacles on the SA circuit do. 2002 NEC 210.8(A)(6).

 

[southernboys]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

thanks jeff. Before we go to a multipage post let me retract my earlier comment. As per 210.52b3 there is a requirement to serve the countertop with two small ckts. Thus where I get the two gfi protected services. My bad and humble pie does taste better when you find it first

 

[electricmanscott]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Ok not to be the board snob but I really thought this was not a diy site. If your argument is that this is not a diyer I would point to this statement :

I am a Software Engineer.

I'm convinced.

I've had two other people tell me that the disposal and diswasher couldn't be fed from the SA branches as well, but I cannot find an article reference to that effect. I'm looking at 210.52 (B)(1) -- 210.52 (B)(3) as reference. Still it's not a bad idea to have them on their own circuit.

Here he is being helped out by experienced licensed electrcians telling him what is required and he actually is disputing it.
:roll:

[ July 14, 2005, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]

 

[luckyshadow]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Is that the exhaust fan on with the GFCI in the bath ? I don't have my code in front of me but , doesn't the Bath GFCI need to be on its own circuit? You might want to think about a recess over the tub.
Also aren't you required to have a GFCI protected outlet both in the front and rear of a house ?

 

[physis]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

No I agree Scott.

Initially the subject was specifically associated with electronic lighting and automation systems. And I believed the interest to be more than just an ordinary DIY mission.

The scope of the interests are growing rather rapidly though. And I'm not as inclined to believe it's as harmless as I once thought.

But my last post isn't pointed at the DIY issue and is still the way I see things.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Not quite. The bathroom receptacles must be GFCI protected, and they can either be on a circuit that serves only bathroom receptacles, or a circuit that serves only one bathroom. Also, the exhaust fan must have GFCI protection if it's above the bath, according to an inspector I talked to recently. I just wired up an exhaust fan downstream of the bathroom GFCI receptacle, but it wasn't over the shower, and the inspector commented that the GFCI protection wasn't necessary.

 

[arjo_reich]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Ok not to be the board snob but I really thought this was not a diy site. If your argument is that this is not a diyer I would point to this statement :

I am a Software Engineer.

I'm convinced.

I've had two other people tell me that the disposal and diswasher couldn't be fed from the SA branches as well, but I cannot find an article reference to that effect. I'm looking at 210.52 (B)(1) -- 210.52 (B)(3) as reference. Still it's not a bad idea to have them on their own circuit.

Here he is being helped out by experienced licensed electrcians telling him what is required and he actually is disputing it.
:roll:

I was merely trying to elicit the article that made it code. And you and Sam are correct, even though I only initially planned to do the rough in, I am experiencing a bit of what I would call "scope creep" as I get into the finer and finer points of the project.

I may have my father's friend - my master electrician that was going to supervise the rough-in and do everything post rough-in inspection - just do all the work. <sigh>

It was never a financial issue, I wanted the experience as i'm trying to get my foot into the industry...albeit a very niche market.

With your continued patience, however, I would like to continue on the board as it provides a wealth of "practicle" knowledge that just doesn't come from reference material.

 

[southernboys]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Hey bud why dont you just work under your dads friend as his helper. Maybe he can lay you out daily as to what he wants you to do. Then in the evening maybe he can check it out. That way you get a feel for this trade. You can then use that experience to decide if you want to make the career move. Dont ever be afraid to learn. Just remember tghis **** can and will kill you. So dont be afraid to ask questions just think more about what you plan to do

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

I hope Sam has room behind his couch for two.

I agree with S.B., some time in the trade would be good for you, Joe.

 

[arjo_reich]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I was hoping that getting nailed with a ten-item list of passing violations, without even seeing the rest of the plan, would arouse some trepidation in Joe, and bring him to the realization that residential wiring to the NEC isn't as easy as it may appear from the outside looking in.

I am glad that this thread has been allowed to continue, as three good events have transpired because of it:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A master electrician has had the courage to voice confusion over an eccenticity of the code that allows the bath fan and lights to be on with the bathroom receptacles. He asked, and now he has one more item in his mental arsenal.

• Just for the record, although it's rather a moot point anyways now...
  
  </font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">my wiring diagram shows the bathroom lighting to be on a seperate circuit than the rest of the bathroom altogether, which is permitted.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">my exhaust fan is on the same circuit as the GFCI, but is not down line from it, nor protected from it.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">the master electrician's doubts and confusions are based on why I would want to rewire the entire house and not just fix issues piece-by-piece.</font>
  <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
  I do appreciate all the insight that I've been given on this list and hope that I can continue to ask questions as they may arise. Although now they will likely be more esoteric in nature as I try to learn more of the finer points here and there.
  
  And yes, as soon as I can afford to do so, financially, I will try to get work as a helper / apprentice so that I can get into the industry -- although as I've mentioned before I have a very niche market staked out for me that should be very lucritive by the time I get there.

 

[physis]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

arjo_reich,

what we talked about yesterday (depending on ones time zone) I felt like you deserved some slack on the DIY thing. So I made a big fuss in the hope that you would be given a break.

12 or 16 hours later you're completely submerged in DIYing your house instead of the subject we were originally talking about.

Now it appears to the forum as if I'm undermining the "No DIY" policy.

I apparently misjudged the situation and I apologize to the forum members.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by georgestolz:

Originally posted by Jeff43222:
Also, the exhaust fan must have GFCI protection if it's above the bath, according to an inspector I talked to recently. I just wired up an exhaust fan downstream of the bathroom GFCI receptacle, but it wasn't over the shower, and the inspector commented that the GFCI protection wasn't necessary.

Did you make him cite a code reference? That's all bunkus.

I searched through the code, and I couldn't find anything that requires it, either. There are quite a few other places that require GFCI protection that aren't laid out in 210.8, but none of them had anything to do with exhaust fans installed above a shower. The instructions that came with the exhaust fan did say that it must be installed on a GFCI protected circuit, though. I decided to go ahead and wire it with GFCI protection regardless, as I thought it was a good idea, especially since the unit had no provision for grounding.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by jeff43222:
The instructions that came with the exhaust fan did say that it must be installed on a GFCI protected circuit, though.

Then there's our answer. 110.3(B).

Now I'm going to have to take a closer look at my bath fans.

Edit to add: What kind of bath fans do you use, that have no provision for grounding?

[ July 15, 2005, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[petersonra]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

seems to me the fan installed in my bathroom is all plastic cased. i don't recall them having a metal frame at all. but I did not install them and I am only going from memory from when the bathroom was being remodeled.

 

[arjo_reich]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Originally posted by physis:
arjo_reich,

what we talked about yesterday (depending on ones time zone) I felt like you deserved some slack on the DIY thing. So I made a big fuss in the hope that you would be given a break.

12 or 16 hours later you're completely submerged in DIYing your house instead of the subject we were originally talking about.

Now it appears to the forum as if I'm undermining the "No DIY" policy. I apparently misjudged the situation and I apologize to the forum members.

I don't really think you misjudged the situation so much as once I started getting constructive critism I began to run wild with it.

My end goals are still the same; obtain practicle experience in the industry whenever I can until I can find a means in which to formally enter it.

I just think this project was a bit too much to bite off at once, even if I was only doing the planning and rough-in portions.

[ July 15, 2005, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: arjo_reich ]

 

[bthielen]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

Sam,

I see where you're coming from. Looking back at my statement, the word priviledged was a poor choice. What I meant was that I saw the information you gave as crossing over that DIY how-to line and I was actually surprised our moderators allowed it to continue. I realize too that electrical information is not owned by contractors and licensed participates as the codes are public knowledge available for anyone that wants to take the time to weed through them.

As I indicated earlier, I would love to be able to tap into the well of knowledge that is contained on this website and get detailed information, pointers, and free training but it just wouldn't be fair. It is my responsibility to seek out an education and training just as it was for all of you. I enjoy reading the discussions that go on here and I learn a tremendous amount as I do but for more detailed hands-on knowledge it would be best for me to change careers. What I gain at this site helps me do a better job designing the machinery I am involved in.

Thanks to all of you and Mike Holt for this site.

Bob

 

[physis]

Re: Why should hire an electrican?

I would love to be able to tap into the well of knowledge that is contained on this website and get detailed information, pointers, and free training but it just wouldn't be fair.

I still don't see why you don't think it's fair but that's ok.

The whole world get's to benefit from this forum.