why?

[ivsenroute]

No rules?

Then do whatever you want and stop whining about the price of wire for doing it the right way. It is your ethics that drive your decisions. If that is the type of electrician you are then you have to live with that.

Kansas is full of cities and some counties that have adopted codes and regulations for the health and safety of the people. How qualified can someone be if they spent their entire career doing whatever they wanted with no oversight?

Anyone can make something work but that does not mean it is safe or code compliant.

Just like the misconception that the vendors are driving the changes in the codes such as the issue over tamper proof receptacles in the 2008 NEC. Not many people know that the CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Council) came to the hearings armed with 10 years of data showing that there were over 25,000 documented emergency room visits for children under the age of 8 who were injured as a result of putting objects into receptacles. This is what is documented only for those under the age of 8 and those that required an emergency room visit.

I understand where you are coming from. You are placing money over safety for your own benefit. I know exactly where you are coming from. Keep asking the same question and someone will tell you what you want to hear.

 

[romeo]

why?

How does a separate ground conductor insure a better low impedance path over a grounded neutral conductor?

It doesn't but IMO it is a safer method. Also I get a gut feeling the the OP is confusing the purpose of the grounding electrode system.

 

[ivsenroute]

on this issue it brings to light the fact the things that the NEC say should be one way the power company just ignores.

so we are doing things a certain way because of safety but you open up a meter base owned by the power company and you see something that is a clear safety violation by the NEC.

i will give you an example: in Snoqualmie, WA the power company is (or at least was) powering houses with 2/0-2/0-4 (i think #4). of course no one here would run a feeder wire to a 200 amp service with anything less than 4/0, but they are the power company and they can do what they want.

the power companies sizing of wires isn't even (in many case) close to the NEC. sucks but that is the way it is.

POCO's use of overhead conductors is not regulated by the NEC and they are using open air conductors with high end insulation. It is not subject to the same temperatures as enclosed SE cable or wires within conduit holding in the heat.

The NEC errs on the side of safety because there are plenty of idiots out there who have no clue. The POCO will change the size of the wire they run, even with open air conductors if warranted based on the actual calculated load of the service. They are making a safe installation, you just don't know the whole story.

 

[romeo]

why?

rwreuter, If you decide to use a 4 wire feeder,please be sure you terminate them properly,or you will defeat the purpose. Not being a wise guy just being cautious

Good luck

 

[rwreuter]

rwreuter, If you decide to use a 4 wire feeder,please be sure you terminate them properly,or you will defeat the purpose. Not being a wise guy just being cautious

Good luck

Thanks, I sure will, the terminations are different for the different set up, one with isolated neutrals and on the other isn't.

 

[rwreuter]

Then do whatever you want and stop whining about the price of wire for doing it the right way. It is your ethics that drive your decisions. If that is the type of electrician you are then you have to live with that.


To some degree I appreciate your post. But let me say this...forums are where people come together with ideas and questions and other people help out by giving advice and explanations when people don't understan.

As far you telling me to just stop whining about something is just plain out of place. If you can't support the discussion without that kind of speech I much rather (since I started this by asking the question) for you to keep you two cents to yourself.

Because of attitudes like yours others are discouraged from asking until they understand and can make at least a decision they can live with. The reason that attitude hinders is because people don't want to ask the question because others will ridicule them when they are not quite as sharp as some think they should be.

When people who are doing something like this and they don't ask questions people can get killed.

This forum and the people on hit have given me a better understanding of a subject that was NEW to me and I will ask until I understand or until people like you speak up at which point I will go elsewhere.

After having had some good discussions on this topic here, I feel very confident that I now have a good grasp on it and how it functions. To all who have assisted and been PATIENT I appreciate it. Sometimes all you can do is give the advice, answer the questions and let it be.

Thank you,

Rob

ps 2005 NEC, it was right, 2008 wrong, if I am under the 2005 NEC which way is right? Ultimately that was the question.......I guess it was missed by some

 

[romeo]

whY?

whY?

Then do whatever you want and stop whining about the price of wire for doing it the right way. It is your ethics that drive your decisions. If that is the type of electrician you are then you have to live with that.


To some degree I appreciate your post. But let me say this...forums are where people come together with ideas and questions and other people help out by giving advice and explanations when people don't understan.

As far you telling me to just stop whining about something is just plain out of place. If you can't support the discussion without that kind of speech I much rather (since I started this by asking the question) for you to keep you two cents to yourself.

Because of attitudes like yours others are discouraged from asking until they understand and can make at least a decision they can live with. The reason that attitude hinders is because people don't want to ask the question because others will ridicule them when they are not quite as sharp as some think they should be.

When people who are doing something like this and they don't ask questions people can get killed.

This forum and the people on hit have given me a better understanding of a subject that was NEW to me and I will ask until I understand or until people like you speak up at which point I will go elsewhere.

After having had some good discussions on this topic here, I feel very confident that I now have a good grasp on it and how it functions. To all who have assisted and been PATIENT I appreciate it. Sometimes all you can do is give the advice, answer the questions and let it be.

Thank you,

Rob

ps 2005 NEC, it was right, 2008 wrong, if I am under the 2005 NEC which way is right? Ultimately that was the question.......I guess it was missed by some[/

There is no such thing as a bad question. Great idea that you asked in this forum.I do it all the time when I am not sure,even after many years in the trade.


There are dedicated people here who are here to help.Don't give up on them.

Again good luck

IMO every code cycle makes changes that provides a better electrical installation.

 

[ceb58]

Rob

ps 2005 NEC, it was right, 2008 wrong, if I am under the 2005 NEC which way is right? Ultimately that was the question.......I guess it was missed by some

Look at 250.32 B (2005) In your case 250.32 B 1 will come into play. You stated that the disconnect will be mounted on a pole away from the home. Correct? You would not be able to use 3 wire as is allowed in 250.32 B 2 because you would have other continuous metal paths

 

[rwreuter]

Look at 250.32 B (2005) In your case 250.32 B 1 will come into play. You stated that the disconnect will be mounted on a pole away from the home. Correct? You would not be able to use 3 wire as is allowed in 250.32 B 2 because you would have other continuous metal paths

what other "continuous metal path" would there be?

 

[hardworkingstiff]

i will give you an example: in Snoqualmie, WA the power company is (or at least was) powering houses with 2/0-2/0-4 (i think #4). of course no one here would run a feeder wire to a 200 amp service with anything less than 4/0, but they are the power company and they can do what they want.

That 2/0-2/0-4 is not so bad, you see the 4 only carries the unbalanced load. On a 200-amp service, I would be very surprised if you ever had an unbalanced load of more than 30-amps.

 

[ceb58]

what other "continuous metal path" would there be?

Do you plan on having phone lines and/or cable? These would be considered continuous metal paths that would require bonding.
Under 2005 you could run 3 wires to a building,drive a grod and tie it to the grounded conductor, lets say a shop, as long as there were no other continuous paths. Now, and it was stated on another post why the change in 2008, lets say you want a phone line or cable to this shop. You have now added the continuous path. In the event of a fault you then could provide objective current on the lines.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

How is it that it is safe enough for services but not safe enough for a feeder?

It does not make electrical sense to me.

Go back to the ROP, and you can read the substantiation.

Wait a minute...who says it has to make sense???

 

[rwreuter]

Do you plan on having phone lines and/or cable? These would be considered continuous metal paths that would require bonding.
Under 2005 you could run 3 wires to a building,drive a grod and tie it to the grounded conductor, lets say a shop, as long as there were no other continuous paths. Now, and it was stated on another post why the change in 2008, lets say you want a phone line or cable to this shop. You have now added the continuous path. In the event of a fault you then could provide objective current on the lines.

There will be nothing else run from that poll. It is effectively a remote meter/disconnect. The phone/TV will be mounted directly to the house. Actually, there is no Cable company out there, I will have to have satellite, and as far as phone goes, the only reason I would phone is for internet, again that will be mounted to the house.

So I will meet all the requirements of the 2005 NEC (which supposedly is the rule in all areas (Counties) of Kansas that don't have any particular inspection criteria. Also there will be no possibility of a future continous metal connecting two, (post and house).

 

[ceb58]

There will be nothing else run from that poll. It is effectively a remote meter/disconnect. The phone/TV will be mounted directly to the house. Actually, there is no Cable company out there, I will have to have satellite, and as far as phone goes, the only reason I would phone is for internet, again that will be mounted to the house.

So I will meet all the requirements of the 2005 NEC (which supposedly is the rule in all areas (Counties) of Kansas that don't have any particular inspection criteria. Also there will be no possibility of a future continous metal connecting two, (post and house).

The pole has nothing to do with it. PLEASE read 250.32 B 1. The phone/dish will require bonding. The phone co. will run there line to the demark box mounted on the house. There is the continuous metal path.

 

[rwreuter]

The pole has nothing to do with it. PLEASE read 250.32 B 1. The phone/dish will require bonding. The phone co. will run there line to the demark box mounted on the house. There is the continuous metal path.

Ok, I just went back and reread (2005 NEC) 250.32.

Let's look at 250.32 (B) Grounded Systems. For a grounded system at the separate building or structure, the connection to the grounding electrode and grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded shall comply with EITHER 250.32(B)(1) OR (B)(2)

From reading that I can choose the either option, either B1 or B2 as long as I meet the requirements of B2.


B2 Grounded Conductor. Where (1) an equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure, (2) there are no continous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved, and (3) ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s), the grounded conductore run with the supply to the building or structure shall be connected to the building or structure disconnectin means and to the grounding electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded. The size.......


After rereading it from my understanding I meet all of the requirements of B2.

I remember when I wired houses for a living and someone wanted a detached garage powered, one of the first things I would ask is are there phone/TV lines or water lines connecting the two. If yes then I would run a GEC, if no then no GEC.

Am I still confused about the interpretation of that section in the 2005 NEC? Are you saying that though the two buildings in question are NOT connected you would still need a GEC because the phone/TV company has run a line to that building from some other facility? And because of that you need the GEC?

I don't read it that way, the only thing the NEC is addressing is the two structures, the one feeding power and the one the receiving power.

 

[ActionDave]

Do you plan on having phone lines and/or cable? These would be considered continuous metal paths that would require bonding.
Under 2005 you could run 3 wires to a building,drive a grod and tie it to the grounded conductor, lets say a shop, as long as there were no other continuous paths. Now, and it was stated on another post why the change in 2008, lets say you want a phone line or cable to this shop. You have now added the continuous path. In the event of a fault you then could provide objective current on the lines.

There will be nothing else run from that poll. It is effectively a remote meter/disconnect. The phone/TV will be mounted directly to the house. Actually, there is no Cable company out there, I will have to have satellite, and as far as phone goes, the only reason I would phone is for internet, again that will be mounted to the house.

So I will meet all the requirements of the 2005 NEC (which supposedly is the rule in all areas (Counties) of Kansas that don't have any particular inspection criteria. Also there will be no possibility of a future continous metal connecting two, (post and house).

The pole has nothing to do with it. PLEASE read 250.32 B 1. The phone/dish will require bonding. The phone co. will run there line to the demark box mounted on the house. There is the continuous metal path.

I'm lost here. The phone and cable are bonded to the GEC at the house, correct?
Where is the continuous path?
I'm under '08 and it's still three wires from the meter pedestal to the house.

 

[ceb58]

I

remember when I wired houses for a living and someone wanted a detached garage powered, one of the first things I would ask is are there phone/TV lines or water lines connecting the two. If yes then I would run a GEC, if no then no GEC

You have answered you own question. IMHO I think your install would not meet 250.32 B 2. You are going to have a phone line and a dish that will need to be bonded to a EGC. They are both external to the building and require grounding or bonding per 250.32 B 1. As I stated the phone line would be a continuous metal path.

 

[rwreuter]

I

You have answered you own question. IMHO I think your install would not meet 250.32 B 2. You are going to have a phone line and a dish that will need to be bonded to a EGC. They are both external to the building and require grounding or bonding per 250.32 B 1. As I stated the phone line would be a continuous metal path.

B2 Grounded Conductor. Where (1) an equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure, (2) there are no continous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved, and (3) ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s), the grounded conductore run with the supply to the building or structure shall be connected to the building or structure disconnectin means and to the grounding electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded. The size.......


That is B2 and I guess I just am not following, to me it says the TV/Phone and Sat. dish will be grounded or bonded to the grouding electrodes and the grounded electrode (neutral).

 

[Buck Parrish]

This is what is a concern.
We get a tingle in the shower. Our service is where the poco set the disco on the pole and a three wire was run to the house. The phone and catv are attached to the neutral at the house. Well we have cast iorn drains going into the earth in the basement.
And the service neutral at the house is attached to the water line.
This makes it attached to our metal drains. In turn it is a better ground then the utilities. Thus we get a tingle. Be it from the phone or neutral taking a path of least resistance to the source. I am not sure.

 

[rwreuter]

This is what is a concern.
We get a tingle in the shower. Our service is where the poco set the disco on the pole and a three wire was run to the house. The phone and catv are attached to the neutral at the house. Well we have cast iorn drains going into the earth in the basement.
And the service neutral at the house is attached to the water line.
This makes it attached to our metal drains. In turn it is a better ground then the utilities. Thus we get a tingle. Be it from the phone or neutral taking a path of least resistance to the source. I am not sure.

Not that this is a relavent question but there were grounds driven. True story or hypothetical?

Either way point well taken and I can follow what is happening.