why?

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benaround

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
rwreuter,

Your problem with the COOP may be your use of terms. Through out this thread you have

refered to the EGC as the GEC, lots of POCO's prohibit the GEC in 'their' metering equip.
 

rwreuter

Senior Member
terms is an issue for sure. i am sure i have swapped the two around several times.

often times things get confusing because depending on where you hook that "green" or "bare copper" wire and what configuration you are it changes the title of wire. :roll:

my fault there.

yes you are right when it comes to the power companies, they don't like anything in there equipment, basically it is there and you are to leave it alone. so unless an AHJ (which in this case there is none) forces them to allow the electrician the have a GEC in the panel it won't happen. Hence this case.
 

srblx

Member
Location
Ohio
If I am understanding you correctly:
1 the power company does not allow services to be attached to the home.
1 the power company requires disconnect.
2 you are required to install the grounding conductor from the disconnect to the house.
3 you can use triplex from meter to disconnect.
QUESTION doesn't the disconnect have to be located within 30 feet of the house to comply with NEC? if so mount disconnect on a poleas close to the house and run your quadplex froim there (i.e. 150 foor run use triplex for 130 feet set disconnect and run quadplex.

MODERATORS FEEL FREE TO CITE PROPER CODE ARTICLES AS THEY APPLY MY BOOK IS HOME ANDI DON'T HAVE THE ARTICLES MEMORIZED9especially since the rearranged it.
 

jsharvey

Member
Location
Mayetta Ks
LISTEN PLEASE....

i am not on any code, there are no code requirements there. i don't even have to pull an electrical permit. i just want to be safe and i don't want to waste money for something that doesn't need to be.

this is a new code requirement, obviously things ran fine before they placed this into existance. any one that is an electrician wire detached buildings that way before.

if you could do things any way you wanted I AM SURE that there would be portions of the NEC that you would exclude.

RW, it's the same reason we no longer use 3 wire receptacles for ranges and driers, safety. The forth wire, the grounded wire, give a low impedance path back to the "main" panel or disconnect to operate the OCPD. I'm in N.E. Kansas and know what you're saying about "no code" or needing permits. If it's your place you can do what you want if it's a customers property and you don't do it to code and god forbid something goes wrong you'll find out that the customers insurance company doesn't go by the "no code" provisions.
Besides,, why do it wrong if you know the right way to do it???
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
If it's your place you can do what you want if it's a customers property and you don't do it to code and god forbid something goes wrong you'll find out that the customers insurance company doesn't go by the "no code" provisions.
Besides,, why do it wrong if you know the right way to do it???
Agreed. It's cheaper to do it right than defend yourself in court, even if you win. Plus, somebody still suffered.
 

rwreuter

Senior Member
If I am understanding you correctly:
1 the power company does not allow services to be attached to the home.
1 the power company requires disconnect.
2 you are required to install the grounding conductor from the disconnect to the house.
3 you can use triplex from meter to disconnect.
QUESTION doesn't the disconnect have to be located within 30 feet of the house to comply with NEC? if so mount disconnect on a poleas close to the house and run your quadplex froim there (i.e. 150 foor run use triplex for 130 feet set disconnect and run quadplex.

MODERATORS FEEL FREE TO CITE PROPER CODE ARTICLES AS THEY APPLY MY BOOK IS HOME ANDI DON'T HAVE THE ARTICLES MEMORIZED9especially since the rearranged it.

disconnect is not required to be within 30' of the house. i could be mistaken but that rule applies to mobile homes.
 

rwreuter

Senior Member
RW, it's the same reason we no longer use 3 wire receptacles for ranges and driers, safety. The forth wire, the grounded wire, give a low impedance path back to the "main" panel or disconnect to operate the OCPD. I'm in N.E. Kansas and know what you're saying about "no code" or needing permits. If it's your place you can do what you want if it's a customers property and you don't do it to code and god forbid something goes wrong you'll find out that the customers insurance company doesn't go by the "no code" provisions.
Besides,, why do it wrong if you know the right way to do it???

wrong or right that is the question......

if you were an electrical contractor and your county hadn't adopted the 2008 code yet what would you do?

i now understand the need for the gec and i WILL be running it regardless of the cost.

before i asked this question i didn't fully understand the reasoning, in principle i agree with it. also, after having read the ROP for the changing of the code that made me even more skeptical about it. the NEC only changed it because they could'nt forsee that someone could possibly add a metal path between the two structures and then would create a hazard. they believed that the risks outweighed the cost.

in my situation, there was no possible way of that happening in the future but i like that thought of having a separate gec incase of a problem with the neutral, it just makes sense.

i wish the ROP would have covered the need for a gec from the poco to all meters.
 

jsharvey

Member
Location
Mayetta Ks
What would I do?

What would I do?

wrong or right that is the question......

if you were an electrical contractor and your county hadn't adopted the 2008 code yet what would you do?

I would do it in accordance with the most recent code. Just because you don't need to do it to code, or city x, or county y, or state z hasn't adopted it, unless they have issued something stating that you will not do something specified in that code, why not use the most current information and guidelines that are out there?
The "no code" stuff is exactly why our state has started the CEU's being required to maintain our licenses, hopefully someday they'll start with a state issued license as well. But, that's a topic for another thread.
 

rwreuter

Senior Member
I would do it in accordance with the most recent code. Just because you don't need to do it to code, or city x, or county y, or state z hasn't adopted it, unless they have issued something stating that you will not do something specified in that code, why not use the most current information and guidelines that are out there?
The "no code" stuff is exactly why our state has started the CEU's being required to maintain our licenses, hopefully someday they'll start with a state issued license as well. But, that's a topic for another thread.

i hate to disagree with you, i think you would wait and here is why.....the cost my friend. if you are bidding against other ec's and you had long runs of four wire in the ground and the NEC didn't require it and you installed it you would be out bid. the cost difference of that gec is significant to any bid

let's take the afci issue, the nec came out and said hey put afci's in all bedrooms ect. ect. ec's didnt' start placing them in houses until their ahj required them to, why? one reason is cost, two, if there were issues, legally they had wired the house iaw the ahj and they were covered.

when the ahj said they were accepting that particular code on such and such a date, every house had it on that date. sure some did it a week before or maybe a month, but no one i know did it as soon as it came out.

i mean just look at the new requirement for childproof receptacles....good grief the cost difference between two is large. if the ahj doesn't require it, then ec's more than likely won't put it in UNLESS other ec's are doing it. apples to apples. if you are doing it and they are not you are losing money and will soon be out of business.
 

jsharvey

Member
Location
Mayetta Ks
i mean just look at the new requirement for childproof receptacles....good grief the cost difference between two is large. if the ahj doesn't require it, then ec's more than likely won't put it in UNLESS other ec's are doing it. apples to apples. if you are doing it and they are not you are losing money and will soon be out of business.

Apples to apples huh, well you do it your way, I'll do it mine. NEC is a minimum requirement and I refuse to do bare minimum wiring it's just not worth it. They update the code because someone comes up with a safer way to do things or better equipment to better protect "life and property". I'll eat pork and beans and bologna be dead broke and go back to work for someone else before I'll EVER run the risk of jepordizing someones life by being "cheap". I got caught in that "cheap" trap once when I was a pup by a cheap G.C and a cheap boss and I swore after what happened from that I would never allow myself to have that on my consience again.

What's better the cost of a few feet of wire or a someones life?
 

david

Senior Member
Location
Pennsylvania
I would have to agree with your assessment for most installations. We are still under NFPA70-2005 here, at least to 2010. I don?t see to many secondary buildings being supplied by four wire feeders
 
I think I understand.

The grounding conductor (4th wire) serves an entirely different purpose than the grounding electrode system of the ground rods and water main.
Yes and no, the (equipment) grounding conductor IS connected to the grounding elctrode system and it can be connected at multiple points. The grounded conductor is only connected at one point, that is at the service entrance point. Utilities may require two connections, one at their side and the oterh is the NEC required at the service entrance point. (This is really not good, since it reduces the effectiveness of the grounding, but for legal reasons there is no way out of this.)

If you want to look upon it in terms of a back up, than it would be a backup to the grounded conductor.

No it is NOT a backup for the grounded conductor unless you connect the grounded conductor at the user end to the metallic case of the equipemnt and in turn conenct that to the grounding electrode system. (Not that you SHOULD do this.)
 

glene77is

Senior Member
Location
Memphis, TN
RMreuter,
"""
What makes a trailer special? ... it has something to do with the metal framing of the trailer ...
"""
I was called to a house-trailer which had no EGC pulled.
The neutral was poorly connected, but it worked for lights and the radio.
The HO had safe entry to the metal trailer during the initial winter.
When Spring arrived, the HO was not wearing shoes, and stepped / stood on the metal (grounded) platform steps, and touched the metal trailer door handle, a severe shock was received.

I got the service call at 1:00AM!
In checking,
I kneeled on the ground, and touched the metal trailer, and ZAP!

Household currents passing across the external parts of the user's equipment can be shocking.

You are right about the house-trailer's metal shell.

This effect is not noticed in wooden residential construction.
On the other hand,
there is a pyroformic carbonization that occurs over many years,
and builds a good conductive path.
I suspect that a lightning hit would arc across this carbonized path.

Comments are welcome.
 
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glene77is

Senior Member
Location
Memphis, TN
RWreuter,
"""
... insurance adjusters know their is a NEC ...
"""

I see the sequence this way.
* There are 30thousand plus electrically related fires each year.
* NFPA Engineers design rules of safe installation to control fires.
* Local Code Enforcement applies the rules of safe installation.
* Insurance companies calculate their $$$ Insurance Rates
on the basis of these rules being enforced, which reduces fires, which reduces insurance payouts.
* Local homeowners have lower $$$ Insurance Rates because the NEC rules are enforced.

Comments are welcome.
 

glene77is

Senior Member
Location
Memphis, TN
The 4th wire IS your ground from the source.

220,
Right on!
The EGC allows the (fault) return current to trip the OCPD.

EGC current passing through the earth may meet 50 Ohms resistance, and pass only 2.5 Amps. Not enough current to trip the circuit breaker, but enough to damage a human.

I was told once to clearly differentiate between
(1) Ground.
(2) Bonding.
(3) GEC, Ground Electrode Conductor, for HV lightening.
(4) EGC, Equipment Grounding Conductor, for 120V faults.

It is interesting to inspect a power pole with 1200 Volt tranmission lines, like the one in your back yard, or up the street. You should find a GEC running from the top Neutral line down the pole, and into the earth Ground.

Comments welcome.
And, I just noticed that my comments are dated very late in the discussion.
Sorry, got lost.
 

rwreuter

Senior Member
RWreuter,
"""
... insurance adjusters know their is a NEC ...
"""

I see the sequence this way.
* There are 30thousand plus electrically related fires each year.
* NFPA Engineers design rules of safe installation to control fires.
* Local Code Enforcement applies the rules of safe installation.
* Insurance companies calculate their $$$ Insurance Rates
on the basis of these rules being enforced, which reduces fires, which reduces insurance payouts.
* Local homeowners have lower $$$ Insurance Rates because the NEC rules are enforced.

Comments are welcome.

they know their NEC......which NEC will they know? 2005 or 2008?

2005 no GEC required
2008 GEC required

county and/or state that hasn't adopted the 2008 are NOT bound to follow it. therefore the insurance company cannot and will not say a word. it will not hold up in court.
 

jap

Senior Member
I believe this would apply to overhead feeders also.
Scenario:
You have a meter and a Service Panel located away from the house or barn. If you installed an Overhead feeder to the house or a Barn instead of underground, you would need quadplex (1) Bare (3) Insulated,instead of triplex to accomodate the grounding conductor.

Is that correct?

all old overhead feeders I have ever seen are all triplex (2) insulated (1) bare,,,,,,,are the overhead Feeders going to 4 wire now also?
 

Mike Furlan

Member
Location
Lemont Il
I also like to understand the "whys" of the code. As best as I can understand, the reason for the change is to try to reduce the amount of current that is flowing through the earth during normal operating conditions.

Current takes all paths available. When you use the grounded conductor (neutral) as the ground (like you are used to doing), current that is on the neutral will have some of the current going back to the source (transformer) through the earth. It's very little when the grounded conductor is in excellent condition. If the grounded conductor should start having some higher resistance developing, the amount of current going through the earth will increase.

I'm of the understanding that there is a push to start isolating the grounded conductor starting at the PoCo transformer (which would require a ground and a grounded conductor from the transformer and the grounded conductor would never be grounded again). The NEC has no jurisdiction over the PoCo.

Like others have said, the NEC normally doesn't just make stuff up to mess with electricians. I understand your frustration (I have it with 310.14(C)). The bottom line, if you want to be one of the best electricians around you need to follow the code in your wiring methods.
Sorry to hit you with a question to an old post:

310.14 (C)?

What year is that from? I don't have that section in the 2008 code.
 
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