Will water bond carry neutral load and balance legs with lost neutral?

[Another C10]

the requirement to use the metal under ground water pipe as a grounding electrode.

250.8 (B) not permitted, connections, devices or fitting that depend solely on solder.
250.53 (2) Supplemental electrode required as noted in
250.52 (A)(2)

I suppose one is at the mercy of the inspector, I'd argue the point of 250.8 (B) or 250.53 (2)
California requires 2 grounding rods, If I were to try to utilizes the water system as my earth ground I'd fail inspection.

 

[LarryFine]

I'm pretty sure they're referring to connections to the piping system, not joints within it.

 

[Another C10]

pretty sure they're referring to connections to the piping system, not joints within it.

not permitted, connections, devices or fitting that depend solely on solder.

Keep in mind, Lighting Strike ... very hot

 

[ActionDave]

not permitted, connections, devices or fitting that depend solely on solder.

Keep in mind, Lighting Strike ... very hot

Are you saying you don't use an underground metal water pipe as a grounding electrode if copper because the plumbing fittings are soldered?

 

[ActionDave]

......California requires 2 grounding rods, If I were to try to utilizes the water system as my earth ground I'd fail inspection.

NEC requires all qualifying electrodes to be used. California does not?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

250.8 (B) not permitted, connections, devices or fitting that depend solely on solder.
250.53 (2) Supplemental electrode required as noted in
250.52 (A)(2)

I suppose one is at the mercy of the inspector, I'd argue the point of 250.8 (B) or 250.53 (2)
California requires 2 grounding rods, If I were to try to utilizes the water system as my earth ground I'd fail inspection.

That should fail every where if you don't have some other grounding electrode, but not using the metal underground water pipe should also fail everywhere that has adopted the NEC without change.
It would be very rare to have any type of solder joint between the point of connection of the GEC and the underground water pipe, however the rules in 250.8 do not even apply to the construction of the grounding electrode itself. They only apply to the connection of the GEC to the grounding electrode.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Are you saying you don't use an underground metal water pipe as a grounding electrode if copper because the plumbing fittings are soldered?

I have never seen a joint in the underground copper water line between connection to the meter and the outside shut off valve. That is always soft copper in a long roll around here.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

250.8 (B) not permitted, connections, devices or fitting that depend solely on solder.
250.53 (2) Supplemental electrode required as noted in
250.52 (A)(2)

I suppose one is at the mercy of the inspector, I'd argue the point of 250.8 (B) or 250.53 (2)
California requires 2 grounding rods, If I were to try to utilizes the water system as my earth ground I'd fail inspection.

So are you telling me where the interior piping system is hard copper pipe with soldered joints that you bond around every joint to comply with the interior metal pipe bonding requirement found in 250.104(A)?

 

[infinity]

If using the water pipe as a parallel path for the grounded conductor is a safety hazard why does the code require that we create that parallel path. That path could be eliminated by the use of an insulating fitting between the interior metal water piping system and the underground water piping system. The gas utilities have been doing that for a long time to prevent their metal underground gas piping system from becoming a parallel pat for the service neutral.

This is a simple solution that would remove the use of the metal water pipe as an electrode. I agree with Don, the NEC allows these parallel paths for the neutral current so if it is such a problem why do they allow it?

not permitted, connections, devices or fitting that depend solely on solder.

Keep in mind, Lighting Strike ... very hot

This is a misapplication of the actual code requirement.

 

[ActionDave]

It would be nice if the NEC would provide some leadership in this area. The metal water pipe as a grounding electrode is a hold over from past century. The two ground rod requirement has no basis in anything factual. The rule that the Grounding Electrode Conductor be unspliced has no factual substantiation and only adds to the aura of grandeur about earthing.

Being stuck with these irrational superstitions in the code should be embarrassing to the authors. I have a feeling, for some, they are a source of pride.

 

[Hv&Lv]

I have NEVER bonded to a water line.
Fact is PE pipe is so commonly used here there are several electricians I know that have never bonded to a water pipe.
The old steel pipes rusted away long ago and were replaced.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I have NEVER bonded to a water line.
Fact is PE pipe is so commonly used here there are several electricians I know that have never bonded to a water pipe.
The old steel pipes rusted away long ago and were replaced.

It is somewhat area specific .... up until a few years ago our city plumbing code required all water services where the pipe was 1" and smaller to be Type K copper, even where the main was non-metalic. Now they permit non-metallic.

 

[infinity]

Around here they still install copper water mains from the street.

 

[Another C10]

So are you telling me

I'm not telling anyone anything or at least that's not my intention. My inspections pass based on what I've been doing for a long time, if you folks pass inspection using your water pipe as an earth ground then great.

I believe the purpose of bonding the water line is to protect people in contact with water systems in the event of a massive surge, period.

 

[Another C10]

If the path via the metal underground water pipe system a safety problem, why does the NEC require us to create that "safety problem"?

Unless I misunderstood this comment I wouldn't of bothered to address the issue of making a water line the priority earth ground.

 

[Another C10]

Grounding Electrode Conductor be unspliced has no factual substantiation

With all do respect, I believe the only substantial purpose is to eliminate the possibility of an open condition through a loose connection. Uncut doesn't become pulled apart or fail.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I'm not telling anyone anything or at least that's not my intention. My inspections pass based on what I've been doing for a long time, if you folks pass inspection using your water pipe as an earth ground then great.

I believe the purpose of bonding the water line is to protect people in contact with water systems in the event of a massive surge, period.

If you are not making a connection to a metal underground water pipe that is present at the building, then your area must have adopted an amendment to the NEC.

250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.

...

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe.
A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed.

...

The bonding of the interior water pipes as required by 250.104(A) is not the same as the requirement to use the metal underground water pile as a grounding electrode.

 

[ActionDave]

With all do respect, I believe the only substantial purpose is to eliminate the possibility of an open condition through a loose connection. Uncut doesn't become pulled apart or fail.

With all due respect returned, so what if the grounding electrode conductor opens? The integrity of the ungrounded conductors, the neutral conductor, and the main bonding jumper are more important to the safe operation of the buildings electrical system. Loose one of those and you have problems.

The grounding electrode conductor is the least important connection in the building. Why must it be placed in some revered and worshiped unspliced condition?

 

[Another C10]

With all due respect returned

Ok .. This will be my last attempt in sounding somewhat educated on this thread.

-The utility neutral is the best return for any utility hot entering the building, which all electrical systems in the facility utilize for proper function.

-The earth grounded reference usually a ground rod/s driven into the earth or a ufer type system connects to the utility neutral reference for no other purpose than to provide a path of least resistance in the event of a lighting strike surge or similar from the utilities or within the facility if present. Chances are the earth ground will have less resistance than the utility neutral at that given point of the building/utility supply.

-The bonding of the water system, usually within 10ft of entering the facility is also connected to the utility neutral reference of the main gear to protect and/or create a least resistive path back to the utility neutral/earth electrode reference in the event of a fault current accidently applied to the water system, the same goes for the gas and metal building structure.

Am I entirely wrong on that.

Thank you.

 

[roger]

I suppose one is at the mercy of the inspector, I'd argue the point of 250.8 (B) or 250.53 (2)
California requires 2 grounding rods, If I were to try to utilizes the water system as my earth ground I'd fail inspection.

If California is not using the NEC that's one thing but if they are the inspector that would fail it needs to be educated.
Unless there has been a formal amendment all the electrodes listed in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) MUST be used if they are present as shown in the illustration below.