Xenon Under cab lights toast your bread, time for LED Ribbon lighting

vino82

Member
Location
south shore, MA
I'm interested in installing some LED ribbon lighting in a single family dwelling. After reviewing my code book these are the requirements I have found I'm expected to follow:

- 411.4(A) Listed System. All parts of this system (Ribbon, power supply, wiring) is to be purchased as one kit. I can't buy Ribbon from one source and a power supply from another? Also, the listing does it have to be UL or do other listing approve (ROHS, FCC, CE...) this section also requires me to use a Class 2 power source.

- 725.133(M) One and Two Family Dwellings. Wiring rated with CL2 is acceptable. Which standard 18-2 "thermostat" wire is rated CL2. Can I use this behind walls for purposes of LED lighting?

I plan to locate the power supply either above the cabinets or in the basement (working on a kitchen). I have 3 locations where I need to mount ribbon lighting. If I understand correctly this will require me to have a power supply with 3 outputs (no parallel wiring off of 1 output). I understand the ribbon lighting has soldering connections at each cut mark. I would like to simply solder my 18-2 to each ribbon and shrink-wrap with plastic tube or hot glue. My 18-2 will be run behind the walls and come through the lip under the cabinet just like when wiring for UC lighting fixtures (14-2).

Does this sound legit to you? Anything else I should consider? Also, does anyone know of a USA LED ribbon supplier? My supply house wants too much for this stuff.

Thank you
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Why not use the Halo UC Lights. LED and very slimlined-- Just bring 120v to it. Kichler also makes them. I would not use the ribbon led-- seems like more trouble then it is worth


 

PetrosA

Senior Member
I've used two brands that I'm happy with: WAC Pro series and Diode Led Blaze ( www.diodeled.com ). I think the edge in color quality goes to WAC, but Diode LED isn't far behind. The WAC product is more plug and play, with 1 foot strips that plug in end-to-end and the only joining required is at the start and at changes in direction. This is done with premade cables with ends designed for their system. The DiodeLED product requires soldering to pads on the ribbon. That makes it a little more flexible for in-cabinet installations or other applications where feeding it at the end may not be feasible (you can solder on to any of the tabs along the length of your ribbon). I would recommend using stranded wire for soldering. CL2 speaker wire would be a better choice than T-stat wire.

Either system is probably going to run you about $25-$30 per foot. It's more expensive for parts than Ambiance, but installs much faster.
 

vino82

Member
Location
south shore, MA
Dennis Alwon
Why not use the Halo UC Lights. LED and very slimlined-- Just bring 120v to it. Kichler also makes them. I would not use the ribbon led-- seems like more trouble then it is worth


I have installed the ribbon lighting at my own house with my own methods and really like how It turned out. My query relates to proper installation methods that I can use when installing for a customer.

 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Why not use the Halo UC Lights. LED and very slimlined-- Just bring 120v to it. Kichler also makes them. I would not use the ribbon led-- seems like more trouble then it is worth


Depends on the wants/needs of the application. Some cases such a luminaire may be just fine, others the ribbon light is more able to be customized to fit the needs.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
The real question here is what does the requirements in 411.3(B) really mean. It states:

411.3 Listing Required. Lighting systems operating at
30 volts or less shall comply with 411.3(A) or 411.3(B).
(B) Assembly of Listed Parts. A lighting system as-
sembled from the following listed parts shall be permitted:
(1) Low-voltage luminaires
(2) Low-voltage luminaire power supply
(3) Class 2 power supply
(4) Low-voltage luminaire fittings
(5) Cord (secondary circuit) for which the luminaires and
power supply are listed for use
(6) Cable, conductors in conduit, or other fixed wiring
method for the secondary circuit
So if the cable being used, in this case CL2, is a listed cable but not part of a lighting system can it still be used with other light system parts?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
It sounds like the power supply and luminaire instructions have to specify that cable type as an option rather than the cable having to be part of the product.
If the product does not say anything about the wiring type ( such as CL2) , you would be forced back to article 300 methods instead.

Tapatalk!
 

vino82

Member
Location
south shore, MA
I see under 411.4 (A) Listed System. Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less SHALL BE LISTED AS A COMPLETE SYSTEM. The luminaires (ribbon), power supply, luminaire fittings (including the exposed bare conductors) of an exposed bare conductor lighting system shall be listed for the use as part of the same identified system.

The way I see it is I must use a ribbon and power supply made by one manufacturer listed to be used as a pair. I must also use the same manufacturers couplings, wire leads, connectors... I'm asking if your standard "bell" wire "thermostat" wire 18-2 which is CL2 rated is acceptable to be used with 24vdc or 12vdc ribbon light for extending locations from the power supply. Or tying two pieces of ribbon together via solder with voltage drop in mind. As far as I can see it is acceptable, I am looking for anyone who disagrees.

What you have asked Infinity, is it unacceptable to use the CL2 rated 18-2 with a particular light system that does not recognize the 18-2 as part of its lighting systems wiring methods?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I see under 411.4 (A) Listed System. Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less SHALL BE LISTED AS A COMPLETE SYSTEM. The luminaires (ribbon), power supply, luminaire fittings (including the exposed bare conductors) of an exposed bare conductor lighting system shall be listed for the use as part of the same identified system.

The way I see it is I must use a ribbon and power supply made by one manufacturer listed to be used as a pair. I must also use the same manufacturers couplings, wire leads, connectors... I'm asking if your standard "bell" wire "thermostat" wire 18-2 which is CL2 rated is acceptable to be used with 24vdc or 12vdc ribbon light for extending locations from the power supply. Or tying two pieces of ribbon together via solder with voltage drop in mind. As far as I can see it is acceptable, I am looking for anyone who disagrees.

What you have asked Infinity, is it unacceptable to use the CL2 rated 18-2 with a particular light system that does not recognize the 18-2 as part of its lighting systems wiring methods?
IMO you have two choices, one is to use a complete listed system 411.3(A) or make up a system of listed parts 411.3(B).
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
According to the definition of "Listed" the AHJ decides if what I am using is acceptable or not?

Yep-- this is why I try and stay away from these systems. There is so much stuff out there done with telephone wire etc and it seems no boby really understands 411 even though it is the shortest article in the book.

I basically see it as Trevor does.-- Use a listed system or all the parts must be listed or you need to wire it based on chapter 3 wiring methods.

If the wiring does not enter any walls then the hookup is simpler --411.4. No telling what the inspector may say so you may run it by them first
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
IMO you have two choices, one is to use a complete listed system 411.3(A) or make up a system of listed parts 411.3(B).
And under (B) the situation looks fairly simple until you hit this one set of words:
(5) Cord (secondary circuit) for which the luminaires and
power supply are listed for use
If (5) had limited itself to saying that the wire had to be listed, no problem. CL2 would most likely be fine.
But the wording had to bring in the luminaires and power supply and say, in effect, that their UL listing (including instructions) had to mention at least the type of cord and possibly the particular brand of cord you intend to use.

IMHO just another poorly written section which causes people to avoid invoking it if at all possible, such as by sticking to (A) in the first place.
 

vino82

Member
Location
south shore, MA
Incredible. I think we got to the bottom of my question. Unfortunately we are still up the river without a paddle on this one. I suppose I will 1st install the ribbon lights in towns that I have a set relationship with the AHJ, see what they think. It is too bad that the wording in the code is not clear and concise. I have tons of ideas for interesting uses of the ribbon lights.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I think one of the reasons the code panel went this way was to many installers didn't have a concept of how much amperage you get out of a 150 watt or 300 watt power supply at 12 volts, all too often I saw installs where someone used 18/2 cl2 wire on a 600 watt PS with no proper fusing to protect it at the 7 amps it is rated for, and I have heard of a few fires caused by this, as we can easily see a 600 watt ps @ 12 vdc is 50 amps, as a bolted fault could go much higher.

Most of the responses I heard in the field when I question one of these installs was "its only 150 watts" without even giving a thought to the voltage
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
Incredible. I think we got to the bottom of my question. Unfortunately we are still up the river without a paddle on this one. I suppose I will 1st install the ribbon lights in towns that I have a set relationship with the AHJ, see what they think. It is too bad that the wording in the code is not clear and concise. I have tons of ideas for interesting uses of the ribbon lights.
I'm doing a job with a ribbon LED from HAFELE...no solder on the ribbon, just cut with scissors and snap on end connector. I haven't used it before but will learn. It has motion sensors and its on on/off dimmer control.

Here is the catalog link...LOOX LED Ribbon 2013 page 23 I think...

http://www.hafele.com/us/en/external/blaetterkataloge/TheLooxLightingSystem_2013/

shortcircuit
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
If a ribbon brand of LEDs also includes wire in their lineup, you may have to use it, but you need to read the directions, like with Ambiance, which is an example of a complete system minus the wire used in-wall (you have to use NM or MC/AC wiring for this). Most of the brands I've seen which have soldered connections do not have a wire for running in the walls in their system and specify a CL2 cable to be used.
 

vino82

Member
Location
south shore, MA
Thanks for the tip on HAFELE, looks great. I like how their prices are out in the open. Also, I definitely have Ohms law In mind when calculating the install. I have a somewhat related question that hurk27 inspired with his comment. What are the benefits of a 12v system vs. a 24v system? if inherently you'll have a smaller ampacity with a 24v system. We pay for watts so what's the benefit of a 12v system?
 
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