xfmr stiff enough... Elevator soft starts - lights dim

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Ingenieur

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Earth
what I can't get my head around
starter rating 156
200% current limit 312

actual running draw 50-60 A (motor is rated 148)
peaks 160-170 range (probably higher, just not captured)
no where near the limit

be interesting to see the current when fully loaded
be interesting to see the starter wiring: in line vs in side delta, etc.

no adjustment for ramp up/down (accel/decel), since hydraulic done with valves/snubbers


ref: the charts
they have 5 pulses
does this represent 5 floors?
pushing all 5 and the elevator travelling to each floor (~10 sec) and stopping (~10 sec) then continuing?
 
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Ingenieur

Senior Member
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looking at the charts again
was I reading them wrong?

the left y axis is voltage (0-250) and the right, current (0-500)
even though the right is labeled voltage/current
I was using the 0-250 left scale for both V and I

if that is the case it makes more sense
average running amps 100-125 A (motor rated 148)
peaks limited to ~325 A (setting is 312)
with 100-125 A running you would expect 500+ if unlimited

if that is the case the controller looks like it is working properly
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
I looked at the amps on the new charts and I recalled 4x, 3x, 3x amps and the imbalance looked to be in 25% range.
As far as load. A 50 hp elevator is probably like a big pickup. The amount of load it carries in an ordinary use is immaterial to the weight of the car.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
170227-0929 EST

Ingenieur:

What I believe you are missing is:

1. There are 5 quite consistent current pulses of 10 seconds duration each spaced by 10 seconds. The pulses are quite consistent in shape, but magnitude is slightly different between the three phases, under 100 to about 124 A.

2. But, superimposed on some of these consistent pulses are random transients from 0 to 300 A during motor starting. Since this starter has phase shift control of current these transients are unlikely to be part of a normal cycle. We need to see scope plots of current vs time.

3. The magnitude of the transients seems to be about the same on all three phases.

It is possible that there is a logger problem.

Have to leave.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
170227-1326 EST

To clarify my point 3 in the previous post.

When you look at wyerman's photos of the plots and look at a single common time period of 10 seconds, look at the current for each of the phases for this time period, then it appears the three transients are all about the same magnitude.

Look at different 10 second time periods and the amplitude of the transient varies from one time period to another, and appears to bo nonexistent in other periods. Is this logger instrumentation error or a real world variation.

I did some experiments with simple test equipment I have using a single phase motor as a load. This motor has no external mechanical load. Thus, its internal inertia and available starting torque determines how long starting current lasts. Basically the shortest time for this motor to start. This waveform is very consistent starting from 0 RPM for every cycle based on scope measurements. This was done with a Fluke Hall device probe and a Rigol scope. 100 mS to where the centrifugal switch opens, and another 20 to 30 mS to reach full speed and a little overshoot.

Waveform peak measured current was 40 A (4 V), this lasts for 6 cycles to where the centrifugal switch opens, then about 3 to 4 cycles to reach steady current with a peak value of about 4 A.

With an old, 60 years, Amprobe analog clampon meter set to the 40 A range I consistently read a peak value of 15 A. In this time range it is working like a ballistic galvanometer. On the 15 A range there was no way to see if there was overshoot. On the 15 A range the steady state reading was about 4 A.

In addition to the scope I added a 1N4148 diode and 1 ufd capacitor to provide a limited peak hold circuit across the Fluke Y8100 current probe. Two different shunt resistive loads were placed across the capacitor. The first resistance was 1 megohm scope input in parallel with a 10 megohm Fluke. In the second case the scope input was changed to a 10 megohm probe in parallel with Fluke thus equalling 5 megohms. This determines the discharge time constant.

I used both a Fluke 27 and 87 for measurements. The 27 peak hold seemed too slow in responxe, inconsistent results.. The 87 is labeled as 100 mS.

Neither the 27 or 87 did a good measurement in AC MIN-MAX mode on this duration of signal. The 87 did well on the diode-RC peak hold with 5 megohms as the discharge shunt. Note that using a simple diode and capacitor as a peak hold results in an error from diode drop. For several trials DC readings of 2.32, 3.24, 3.24, and 3.24 were read. At 100 mS the red curve is about 3.3 V, and 3.6 V on the longer time constant. AC line voltage could be the source of some variation. It appears the Fluke current probe saturates at about 40 A, and we are right at that point.

Following are the plots:

.
DS2_QuickPrint75R.JPG
.
DS2_QuickPrint76R.JPG
.

Blue is AC current, red is the peak hold current. Fluke scaling is 20 A = 2 V.

With the Fluke 27 on AC fixed range and MIN-MAX mode using the same Fluke Hall current probe as used with the scope I had more like 30% variation in the peak current. It was reading the equivalent of 5 to 8 A. Other meters may perform quite differently.

To try to sort out instrumentation errors from data one needs to know how their instruments function.

.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
I believe the charts are an accurate representation
the sample rate is too low and some peaks are missed
but most are generally captured and consistent
running 100-125 (rated 148)
the current limit is set at 200% x 156 ~ 310
that corresponds closely to the peaks ~325

the v drops every time it travels
it's just that the v drop spike and current spikes aren't captured
 
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gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
170227-2239 EST

Ingenieur:

If your were designing a datalogger how would you convert the signal to be measured from it's instantaneous value to a value that is sampled for display? Clearly there are many ways, and the results will be different depending upon the method.

Some examples:

1. Measure the highest instantaneous value and hold until the next sampling time, then reset. This would probably be the full wave rectified value so you do not have a positive and negative output. This is a true peak hold and provides no signal time duration information.

2. Measure the total current energy over the sample period. For a constant amplitude signal the sampled output is proportional to the duration within the sample period.

3. Some RC averaging dircuit that is slow to respond, but may affect the output values over many sample periods.

I suspect the data logger uses some form of averaging over the sample period.

.
 

wyreman

Senior Member
Location
SF CA USA
Occupation
electrical contractor
I'm going in tomorrow
God willing
with

my old boss (a wise guy)
a fluke 289 (real calibrated v min/max)
3 lightbulb's on alligator clips
60a worth of 120v space heaters/ hair dryers on a toggle switch
three instantaneous data loggers clamping Min max amps

An extra guy to push the button in the elevator
harhar

Looking to
ID Loose phase by 120v flikr
Swap rotation as needed , see if flikr follows elevator or poco
Literally Toggle 60a 120v before the meter , measure min max w fluke 289: multiply by 5- how stiff is my xfmr with a big bouncy load
Measure vds across all joints / over current devices
Min max clamps in a spreadsheet for all phases at main & elevator disco w elevator as test load

For fun I would read 9v D.C. Ohms across motor leads
Count motors leads and. Nameplate pass weight

And whatever else we think of in four hours



I'll post results
 
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gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
170227-2526 EST

wyerman:

Have fun.


Ingenieur:

Connect a function generator to a Simpson 260/270 meter. Select the 10 V AC range. Use a 500 Hz sine wave and adjust for a reading of 5.00 V. Change to a balanced square wave output at the same peak voltage. What is the AC voltage reading? Lower the frequency to 10, 1 and 0.2 Hz. What does the meter do? I am not asking this questions of electricians, but of engineers.

.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
a fluke 289 (real calibrated v min/max)

A hair dryer at the end of a relatively long branch gave me 5v drop per 15A, which causes visually significant flicker on a light bulb on the same branch. It's the rapid current change that triggers our senses. The notes you would want to take is

"hair dryer/test load on, phase A/B/C.. "voltage DROP of xx v.. observed at (hopefully as close as possible to the PoCo end)".
You do want to place the load on the load side of breakers for safety since hair test loads are not necessarily CAT IV rated.

To correct the above you give the lights a separate run to the panel, but if the switched load is big enough relative to the system size, the flicker would be noticeable at the feeder.

You're sharing a feeder between lighting/general load with a big motor after all and your case is a flicker caused by something within the property so you might be running up against the case of 'but I can feel it jiggle in my seat when the pig moves around in the back of my van'.

The obligations of power company is different when the source of flicker it is your own stuff causing flicker to your own property. I'd say figuring out who pays is your worst nightmare complication.

Better be careful with the 9v DC test. An inductor that big will kick back hard. Even a 1.5v battery across a decent sized battery gives you a memorable shock.
 

wyreman

Senior Member
Location
SF CA USA
Occupation
electrical contractor
I told my old boss I wanted him there
" ⚡️can you help for a couple hours on Tuesday? Have need of your experience & intelligence thx !
His reply: Have to check and see if i have the experience & intelligence needed.

he didn't show!:dunce:
I must not have asked nice enough :rant:

Had some fun testing yesterday, more data, no answers yet -
I think rotating the phase sequence at the disco will be the only way to prove if the limp follows the dog or the owner

elevator test the A leg had a 90a differential with a 107 minimum the b leg had a 20a differential with 113 min c leg had 20a dif w 114 min??
a leg has low current and low voltage?? what is that!
biggest differential , but lowest current and lowest voltage

motor leads have
2 leg pairs w 0.8 ohm;
1 leg wtih .25ohm


[the "A" phase had much more unbalanced P-N current on parallel conductors at main & greatest dip;
all legs had limit down dip at least;
motor line dipped below 104v at disco;
[6?] motor leads had two 9v ohm values {172Mohm for 4 leads and 165Mohm for 2 leads}]

40A load bank was not conclusive but reading still showed xfmr not too stiff;
recommend rotate phase wires at disco but have some fear about sychronizing

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AkuU8mYuf3eEgS0YMf0YW6Kk_21Q
 
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GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
he didn't show!:dunce:
I must not have asked nice enough :rant:

Had some fun testing yesterday, more data, no answers yet -
I think rotating the phase sequence at the disco will be the only way to prove if the limp follows the dog or the owner

elevator test the A leg had a 90a differential with a 107 minimum the b leg had a 20a differential with 113 min c leg had 20a dif w 114 min??
a leg has low current and low voltage?? what is that!
biggest differential , but lowest current and lowest voltage

motor leads have
2 leg pairs w 0.8 ohm;
1 leg wtih .25ohm


[the "A" phase had much more unbalanced P-N current on parallel conductors at main & greatest dip;
all legs had limit down dip at least;
motor line dipped below 104v at disco;
[6?] motor leads had two 9v ohm values {172Mohm for 4 leads and 165Mohm for 2 leads}]

40A load bank was not conclusive but reading still showed xfmr not too stiff;
recommend rotate phase wires at disco but have some fear about sychronizing

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AkuU8mYuf3eEgS0YMf0YW6Kk_21Q
If the only load difference is that motor and its controller on and off, then 90A on one line and 20A on the other two means that there is something horribly wrong in the motor or its wiring! It may run, but it is not running right.

The only possibly acceptable result would be if the 90A was just peak current and the exact same peak on the other two leads just was not caught by the logger.
 

wyreman

Senior Member
Location
SF CA USA
Occupation
electrical contractor
The average and balances for a parallel conductors on the same phase
vol
the combined average draws fairly close For each set of parallel conductors

I have to break out the Flexi cloud data logger to see that
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
The average and balances for a parallel conductors on the same phase
vol
the combined average draws fairly close For each set of parallel conductors

I have to break out the Flexi cloud data logger to see that
OK, I understand your numbers now.
A line to line differential of 90A on a parallel conductor set indicates either a significant length difference or a marginal connection on one of the wires.

Not necessarily an immediate problem, but if the differential results in one of the parallel conductors being used above its rated ampacity you have a problem that needs to be corrected.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
OK, I understand your numbers now.
A line to line differential of 90A on a parallel conductor set indicates either a significant length difference or a marginal connection on one of the wires.

Not necessarily an immediate problem, but if the differential results in one of the parallel conductors being used above its rated ampacity you have a problem that needs to be corrected.

iirc one conductor is much larger than the other

Based on your one line ... service conductor impedance (200' of 1000 MCM Al in parallel with 200' of 500 MCM CU) in air....

I think these are the conductors he's talking about?
 

GoldDigger

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Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer


iirc one conductor is much larger than the other

Based on your one line ... service conductor impedance (200' of 1000 MCM Al in parallel with 200' of 500 MCM CU) in air....

I think these are the conductors he's talking about?

I think that I have now caught up on the whole story of the thread.
Since it is on the POCO side of the service point, that kind of mismatched parallel conductor is probably legal, but I would still call it a bad idea.
And the difference in differential indicates that in one or two of the sets one of the parallel conductors is not doing its fair share.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
I think that I have now caught up on the whole story of the thread.
Since it is on the POCO side of the service point, that kind of mismatched parallel conductor is probably legal, but I would still call it a bad idea.
And the difference in differential indicates that in one or two of the sets one of the parallel conductors is not doing its fair share.

the Z of the 500 is ~1.5 of the 1000
So if load is 125 A
~75 on the 1000
50 on the 500
so the 20 diff looks plausible
the 90 looks suspect..bad connection?

for the pair with the 90 diff
what did the 500 carry?
the 1000?
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
170301-2015 EST

wyerman:

I could not understand anything from your post #91 on measurements.

Making low resistance measurements with a DVM by poking the probes at the item to be measured is very likely to have large errors. Probe tip to item can have a high variability in its resistance. Further only a very low current is used.

You mentioned motor resistance values, but I really don't know what was measured. If the motor has 6 independent wires, meaning I can independently measure the resistance of each of the three coils, then your values of 0.8 ohms for each of two coils, and 0.25 ohms for the other coil is very significant. But because of the means of resistance measurement, two point, vs a four terminal measurement I have to be suspect of the results.

With my Fluke 27, two good banana plugs, and dead short between the plugs I get a reading of 0 ohms. With a set of good Fluke probe leads and tight contact of the probe tips I get around 0.1 to 0.2 ohms. Depends upon pressure between the probes. Fluke resistance measurement is at low current. With a different set of Fluke probes, I classify them as defective, the reading is in the range of 0.4 ohms.

I could not see any flicker in your light bulb movies. I might have missed flicker or possibly the camera did.

With my Samsung phone I tried an experiment where I viewed a bulb with very slight flicker. Visually the flicker was more apparent than when viewed in the movie. Very hard to detect when played back on the same phone that it was recorded on. The experiment consisted of a 15 W bulb operated at 60 V.This was to reduce brightness to my eye and to the camera. At this level the camera is not saturated. A 2.1 V change in voltage change at 120 V was applied to the Variac to the bulb. The voltage dip duration was determined by the starting time of my single phase motor at my bench. In a previous post I showed this starting current. Duration about 100 mS. Post #85.

I believe that you can use a more logical direct sequence of experiments (tests) to ferret out where your problem or problems are.

Doing a load change as small as 10 A, a space heater, can probably identify if the impedance of one of your phases is greater than the others. The data from your previous data logging tests seems to imply this.

I want to see the data logger plots of the three line to neutral voltages with their corresponding line currents.

.
 

wyreman

Senior Member
Location
SF CA USA
Occupation
electrical contractor
COMMUNICATION IS ABOUT WHAT THEY HEAR, NOT WHAT YOU SAY

COMMUNICATION IS ABOUT WHAT THEY HEAR, NOT WHAT YOU SAY

The average and balances for a parallel conductors on the same phase
vol
the combined average draws fairly close For each set of parallel conductors

I have to break out the Flexi cloud data logger to see that

I did not clearly communicate:
ELEVATOR INSTANTANEOUS P-N https://1drv.ms/f/s!AkuU8mYuf3eEgUuzp2xWRSgBpHGQ

"A"LEG Parallel CONDUCTORS 195 FAT 111 SKINNY MIN V=108
total amp draw 306a
lowest voltage, lowest current
https://1drv.ms/i/s!AkuU8mYuf3eEgU5lEAV_8blt4xXo

"B"LEG Parallel CONDUCTORS 171A 157A MIN V=113
total amp 328a
https://1drv.ms/i/s!AkuU8mYuf3eEgU16pszu5fIJxqCM

"C"LEG Parallel CONDUCTORS 173A FAT 153A SKINNY MIN V=114
total amp 326a



Leg "A" looks bad to me
We did repeated tests

40amp instantaneous P-N loading
https://1drv.ms/i/s!AkuU8mYuf3eEgVbEZrpB0QU9AQRz

using the load bank method, seems like the legs all dip about the same, at least the suspect LEG "A" does not dip any more than the others, in fact it seems to dip less.
Supports the idea that the trouble is in the elevator starter or winding, not from POCO


aleg : bleg float = 123.7 min= 121.7
https://1drv.ms/i/s!AkuU8mYuf3eEgVbEZrpB0QU9AQRz

bleg float = 123.9 min= 121.7
cleg float = 123.3 min= 121.1
 
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