You have to use square D AFCIs

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mkgrady

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Wired a new kitchen. The customer reports that the microwave oven tripped three times in a week. I told him there must be something wrong with the micro and suggested he contact the seller and or manufacturer. Manufacturer got back to him with the following: "A SQUARE D AFCI MUST BE USED". Great response. I installed Siemens subpanel for the job. My options are obvious but I think it is pathetic for a manufacturer to respond this way when the installation instructions do not indicate this rediculous requirement.
 
That has a lot more to do with the differing algorithms used by the AFCI manufacturers than anything thing else. It appears that the microwave manufacturer has determined that the SquareD algorithms do not see their appliance as an arcing fault and other AFCIs do.
 
FWIW, the UL testing for this type of equipment does not require it to work with any particular AFCI. The burden is entirely on the AFCI manufacturer to not false trip.
OTOH, if there is a simple design change that can let the equipment work with more AFCI types the equipment manufacturer has an incentive to make it as a marketing point.

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Take it off the AFCI !!!!!

Have you tried anther AFCI breaker?

Buy a cheap off the shelf microwave and have the customer try it. If the customer is trustworthy they will confirm if the AFCI opens or does not.
 
K8MHZ said:
You may be correct.
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I do not see it that way.
The appliance manufacturer has no warranty obligation to make their equipment work with a defective AFCI.
That the unit works with a Square D AFCI is evidence that the other AFCI brands are at fault.
If the unit had excess leakage current to ground, OTOH, and could only be used with a GE AFCI, which does not have a GF trip, that would be a product defect. And the cited warranty policy would apply.

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GoldDigger said:
That the unit works with a Square D AFCI is evidence that the other AFCI brands are at fault.
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Not really.
Look at the same discussion we use for non-contact voltage testers; the fact that the tester lights up means that there is voltage but when it doesn't you can't (safely) infer that there isn't.

If the microwave works with SquareD AFCI breakers, that's great. But we can't infer that it won't work with any other mfg's breakers, or that if it trips the others they're defective, not the oven.

The real question is which AFCI breakers the maker has tested it with, and which trip or don't trip in normal and standards-compliant (e.g. ground leakage) operation.
 
GoldDigger said:
I do not see it that way.
The appliance manufacturer has no warranty obligation to make their equipment work with a defective AFCI.
That the unit works with a Square D AFCI is evidence that the other AFCI brands are at fault.
If the unit had excess leakage current to ground, OTOH, and could only be used with a GE AFCI, which does not have a GF trip, that would be a product defect. And the cited warranty policy would apply.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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and if the microwave mfg happened to own SqD, then what?

Actually, since the AFCI is not part of the microwave, it may not violate MM. That said, I'm sure there are other rules that forbid speccing one brand or mfg of parts to allow the microwave to work. As long as the electrical installation is up to code, I do not believe a mfg could put in their instructions "only use SqD AFCI breakers" or "warranty only valid with Romex brand branch circuit wiring", and that there have been no threads here of that type that I can remember tells me the mfg rep who spoke to the OP is dead wrong. They are copping out and putting the burden back on him and the customer, which is sad, but typical.

Personally, I would have posted a recording of that convo and the mfg name, and sent them a letter/email. It is not up to the electrician to play 20 breakers with faulty products, whether it's the microwave or AFCI.

the OP doesnt appear to have ruled out some sort of intermittent short that could be legitimately tripping the AFCI, like a loose wire in a jbox, damaged cord, loose receptacle, etc, so before we condemn the breaker or microwave, perhaps more investigation is in order. Sometimes just replacing the breaker works.
 
peter d said:
This is unacceptable. How much longer can this shameful situation with AFCI's be allowed to go on? :rant::rant:
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15 year public beta test with AFCI shows no signs of stopping. I've only had to replace one goofy AFCI, but it is VA where the req for AFCI is bedroom outlets only and there are relatively few AFCI breakers here, even in brand new construction. A 7,000 sq ft house might have 3 or 4 of them max.

Move to MI, they rescinded all the AFCI reqs iirc.
 
OP here. Based on the manufacturer stating that the AFCI must be Square D, I have not done any troubleshooting. It seems pointless. I personally installed the circuit and terminated both ends. The circuit only trips when the unit is running so I do not suspect a faulty branch circuit. The circuit does not trip on every use of the micro. I am disgusted (but not surprised) that the microwave manufacturer provides the secret information after the work is done. I see no economical code compliant way to fix this. The panel is in a finished wall, so replacing it with a Square D panel would not be easy.

In fantasyland the home owner could go back to the appliance dealer and have them replace the micro and matching double oven (both contained in a shared trim) with one that works on more than one brand of circuit breaker
 
mkgrady said:
OP here. Based on the manufacturer stating that the AFCI must be Square D, I have not done any troubleshooting. It seems pointless. I personally installed the circuit and terminated both ends. The circuit only trips when the unit is running so I do not suspect a faulty branch circuit. The circuit does not trip on every use of the micro. I am disgusted (but not surprised) that the microwave manufacturer provides the secret information after the work is done. I see no economical code compliant way to fix this. The panel is in a finished wall, so replacing it with a Square D panel would not be easy.

In fantasyland the home owner could go back to the appliance dealer and have them replace the micro and matching double oven (both contained in a shared trim) with one that works on more than one brand of circuit breaker
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Why would you even think about replacing the panel just because the microwave trips the AFCI??? IMO, it is not your problem. The microwave trips it.
 
edward said:
Why would you even think about replacing the panel just because the microwave trips the AFCI??? IMO, it is not your problem. The microwave trips it.
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I agree, it is not my problem, but I need to do something for my customer. Let's face it, either I will do something to resolve this or he will get another electrician. The other reason to do something is because i will get to charge the customer for whatever extra work I do to resolve this.
 
I remember some guys were having trouble with Hayward pool pumps (I believe) that would not work with the gfci installed. They called the manufacturer and they told them you have to use Sq.D..... what BS

Get a GE GFCI and put it in the siemens panel and see if it works. My bet is it will work.
 
mkgrady said:
I agree, it is not my problem, but I need to do something for my customer. Let's face it, either I will do something to resolve this or he will get another electrician. The other reason to do something is because i will get to charge the customer for whatever extra work I do to resolve this.
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I did not mean to leave them out without a resolution.

As long as they understand you are charging them for your time, by all means I would do the same. Some people are not the understanding type. I am glad your customer is.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I remember some guys were having trouble with Hayward pool pumps (I believe) that would not work with the gfci installed. They called the manufacturer and they told them you have to use Sq.D..... what BS

Get a GE GFCI and put it in the siemens panel and see if it works. My bet is it will work.
Click to expand...

I suppose I could just put a Square D Homeline in the Siemens panel. That is of course if QO is not required (they did not say).
 
mkgrady said:
I suppose I could just put a Square D Homeline in the Siemens panel. That is of course if QO is not required (they did not say).
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I think I would try that just to see if it really works on the Square D arc fault for a couple of weeks.

If it does work that clears any chance of it being anything but the microwave.

Then I would let the owner contact the manufacturer and see what they intend to do as far as warranty. If they are willing to pay to get a square D panel installed then so be it.
 
growler said:
I think I would try that just to see if it really works on the Square D arc fault for a couple of weeks.

If it does work that clears any chance of it being anything but the microwave.

Then I would let the owner contact the manufacturer and see what they intend to do as far as warranty. If they are willing to pay to get a square D panel installed then so be it.
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I don't see it that way...the other AFCI manufacturers have an obligation to make AFCIs that do not trip with appliances that are not malfunctioning. There is no reason for the microwave manufacturer to pay for anything...there is a strong reason for the other AFCI manufacturer to pay to fix this problem.
 
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