You have to use square D AFCIs

[GoldDigger]

Why would you even think about replacing the panel just because the microwave trips the AFCI??? IMO, it is not your problem. The microwave trips it.

And from the microwave manufacturer's point of view why should they have to change their product to accommodate a clearly defective AFCI.
To me the heart of the problem is that the UL tests for AFCIs simply cannot be thorough enough to assure that the do not false trip on a non-arc electronic signature.
So two NRTL listed devices are not necessarily compatible.
As for the OP's problem, I would try putting an RF filter on the wires at the receptacle or junction box feeding the microwave. If that is not possible, than at/near the panel where the breaker is.
Note carefully: I am talking about an RF noise / interference filter, not a surge protector!
I think the odds are good that this will resolve the problem.

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[iwire]

And from the microwave manufacturer's point of view why should they have to change their product to accommodate a clearly defective AFCI.

They want to sell their product?

 

[GoldDigger]

They want to sell their product?

I did mention that already.
And it is not likely to do the OP any good in the near term.

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[JFletcher]

mk grady, have you tried plugging it in another AFCI circuit, or swapping AFCI breakers in the panel?

I've no doubts of your work however someone could have driven a screw thru the wall into your wiring, mice/squirrels could be eating the NM, etc. The existing AFCI may be tripping at too low a threshhold; swapping another in its place may very well work.

Unless it's a high end microwave, istm that replacing it would be cheaper than a new SqD sub-panel.

What about using a AFCI receptacle and standard breaker? Certainly worth a shot.

 

[GerryB]

mk grady, have you tried plugging it in another AFCI circuit, or swapping AFCI breakers in the panel?

I've no doubts of your work however someone could have driven a screw thru the wall into your wiring, mice/squirrels could be eating the NM, etc. The existing AFCI may be tripping at too low a threshhold; swapping another in its place may very well work.

Unless it's a high end microwave, istm that replacing it would be cheaper than a new SqD sub-panel.

What about using a AFCI receptacle and standard breaker? Certainly worth a shot.

That is a good idea. Also, If there is an EI involved I would ask him if I could use a regular outlet there. Some of them are pretty reasonable actually. (If no inspection definitely a regular outlet. If it was good enough a couple years ago it's good enough now.)

 

[bsmith8691]

Cutler Hammer makes a "universal" AFCI that is U.l. listed for use in that Siemens panel. It is a CL breaker. Try that.
Also, try switching the phase leg of the AFCI. I have seen this work also.

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[texie]

NEMA

NEMA

NEMA has been insisting to me that they will help using this form:http://www.afcisafety.org/report.html
I think we should take them up on their offer in cases like this. I've never done it as I don't often work with AFCI, but this seems to me worth a shot. If they don't respond in a timely manner with a solution I would be the first to help you flame them.

 

[peter d]

Cutler Hammer makes a "universal" AFCI that is U.l. listed for use in that Siemens panel. It is a CL breaker. Try that.
Also, try switching the phase leg of the AFCI. I have seen this work also.

A good solution, but who eats the labor and cost of buying another AFCI?

 

[bsmith8691]

Fair question.... However, at this juncture, for me it would be more about making it right than forty dollars and an hours labor.


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[JFletcher]

A good solution, but who eats the labor and cost of buying another AFCI?

In 'no fault' cases past any warranty period, I usually split the labor and materials cost with the customer, and the labor is discounted on top of that. I dont eat it completely as my install is not an issue, and the customer doesnt eat it completely either as they didnt do anything wrong. I have to go this weekend and replace a 40A CH breaker for a central heat that decided to die when I touched it last; I already ate an hour troubleshooting the problem initially, now it's a 5 minute fix, tho an hour total to get there, install it, and get back.

The OP's case sounds like a warranty issue. If you are having routine problems with AFCI breakers, then mentioning them in the initial contract is prudent; have it all spelled out before issues like this arise.

Fair question.... However, at this juncture, for me it would be more about making it right than forty dollars and an hours labor.


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:thumbsup:

and ty for the link on the 'universal' breaker, I'll have to remember that next time something like this comes up.

 

[mkgrady]

I already installed a new afci and I don't know if it is tripping. Some good suggestions here but my main gripe is with the manufacturer of the microwave. They provide most of the information necessary to install the product. A limitation on which circuit breaker must be used should be included in the specifications.

If the breaker continues to trip I will try swapping the breaker to the other leg, I will try a homeliness afci in the Siemens panel and I will tell the owner that the panel should be changed or the microwave should be changed.

 

[JFletcher]

I already installed a new afci and I don't know if it is tripping.

Good play and fairly safe to assume if you havent gotten more calls from them, it isnt tripping (or maybe they havent used it yet...)

Some good suggestions here but my main gripe is with the manufacturer of the microwave. They provide most of the information necessary to install the product. A limitation on which circuit breaker must be used should be included in the specifications.

The mfg cannot specify SqD panels. It would be sales suicide to spec a particular panel since, at best, any given residential panel has perhaps a 20% market share. How in the world would you spec a product that is incompatible with 80% of homes? If they think HOs will pop for a panel change to use their microwave, they are sorely mistaken.

If the breaker continues to trip I will try swapping the breaker to the other leg, I will try a homeliness afci in the Siemens panel and I will tell the owner that the panel should be changed or the microwave should be changed.

Homeliness for home line, hahaha! I'd tell them to return the microwave. What if you change to a SqD panel, then next month they buy a $2000 flatscreen, $700 vacuum, or $1500 treadmill that trips the SqD AFCI, and you call the mfg and they say "only use Siemens (or CH) AFCI"... then what?

 

[growler]

I think I would try that just to see if it really works on the Square D arc fault for a couple of weeks.

If it does work that clears any chance of it being anything but the microwave.

Then I would let the owner contact the manufacturer and see what they intend to do as far as warranty. If they are willing to pay to get a square D panel installed then so be it.

I don't see it that way...the other AFCI manufacturers have an obligation to make AFCIs that do not trip with appliances that are not malfunctioning. There is no reason for the microwave manufacturer to pay for anything...there is a strong reason for the other AFCI manufacturer to pay to fix this problem.

Who would be better at going after the AFCI manufacturers than the manufacturer of the microwave. They obviously have had this problem more than once and are in a position to collect data on the problem. Once they find out their customers are really upset this will give them reason to bring up the issue with the AFCI manufacturer.

Issues like this often are only settled in court and a homeowner doesn't have the resouces to get involved in a court battle. If you could get the names of all the customers affected by this product then you could maybe get a class action case going.

 

[kwired]

I do not see it that way.
The appliance manufacturer has no warranty obligation to make their equipment work with a defective AFCI.
That the unit works with a Square D AFCI is evidence that the other AFCI brands are at fault.
If the unit had excess leakage current to ground, OTOH, and could only be used with a GE AFCI, which does not have a GF trip, that would be a product defect. And the cited warranty policy would apply.

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OP here. Based on the manufacturer stating that the AFCI must be Square D, I have not done any troubleshooting. It seems pointless. I personally installed the circuit and terminated both ends. The circuit only trips when the unit is running so I do not suspect a faulty branch circuit. The circuit does not trip on every use of the micro. I am disgusted (but not surprised) that the microwave manufacturer provides the secret information after the work is done. I see no economical code compliant way to fix this. The panel is in a finished wall, so replacing it with a Square D panel would not be easy.

In fantasyland the home owner could go back to the appliance dealer and have them replace the micro and matching double oven (both contained in a shared trim) with one that works on more than one brand of circuit breaker

I was going to suggest trying a Homeline breaker in the Siemens panel, then came..

I suppose I could just put a Square D Homeline in the Siemens panel. That is of course if QO is not required (they did not say).

Homeline and QO are supposed to have same internal components.

I don't see it that way...the other AFCI manufacturers have an obligation to make AFCIs that do not trip with appliances that are not malfunctioning. There is no reason for the microwave manufacturer to pay for anything...there is a strong reason for the other AFCI manufacturer to pay to fix this problem.

I don't care to continue to try pumping from a dry well.

Who would be better at going after the AFCI manufacturers than the manufacturer of the microwave. They obviously have had this problem more than once and are in a position to collect data on the problem. Once they find out their customers are really upset this will give them reason to bring up the issue with the AFCI manufacturer.

Issues like this often are only settled in court and a homeowner doesn't have the resouces to get involved in a court battle. If you could get the names of all the customers affected by this product then you could maybe get a class action case going.

The microwave manufacturers are just as big of crooks as the AFCI manufacturers, they will get away with what they can for as long as they can. You are right, HO's don't have the resources to get involved, neither do EC's. It will take a class action suit to get anywhere with the problem.

 

[mkgrady]

Good play and fairly safe to assume if you havent gotten more calls from them, it isnt tripping (or maybe they havent used it yet...)

Homeliness for home line, hahaha! I'd tell them to return the microwave. What if you change to a SqD panel, then next month they buy a $2000 flatscreen, $700 vacuum, or $1500 treadmill that trips the SqD AFCI, and you call the mfg and they say "only use Siemens (or CH) AFCI"... then what?

Simple solution. Just install subpanels from all the manufacturers. Connect the five(?) panels using nipples out the bottom to a 6" trough. Now the home owner can buy anything they want. Might cost a lot and look hideous in their family room but at least they won't have a code violation.

 

[hbiss]

This is such a crock. We've been down this road before here several times. So, all equipment manufacturers are supposed to coordinate with the AFCI manufacturers because the AFCI manufacturers can't make something that works but have everybody by the you know whats to install them anyway? In this case this is a new microwave, what happens if the homeowner has older equipment? What happens if I were to buy a commercial product and use it in my home?

As far as I'm concerned it should be three strikes and you are out. If an EC has tried three times to mitigate the problem in good faith then the AFCI device gets thrown in the garbage and replaced with a standard one. If we had this option then you would see how fast these problems get resolved. :thumbsup:

-Hal

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I suppose I could just put a Square D Homeline in the Siemens panel. That is of course if QO is not required (they did not say).

The reason I suggested GE is because they do not use gfp in their afci. The others still use gfp as far as I know....

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The reason I suggested GE is because they do not use gfp in their afci. The others still use gfp as far as I know....

One of the Eaton lines no longer has GFP.

My only problem with that is that, in my opinion, the GFP is by far the most important part...the only part that really has a chance of clearing the fault before a fire starts. I think it was removed because they can pass the tests required by the UL standard without it, and because the removal prevents it from tripping as a result of common wiring errors. We would prevent way more fires with 100% GFCI that with AFCIs that do not have GFP.

 

[JFletcher]

Simple solution. Just install subpanels from all the manufacturers. Connect the five(?) panels using nipples out the bottom to a 6" trough. Now the home owner can buy anything they want. Might cost a lot and look hideous in their family room but at least they won't have a code violation.

hahaha!

This is such a crock. We've been down this road before here several times. So, all equipment manufacturers are supposed to coordinate with the AFCI manufacturers because the AFCI manufacturers can't make something that works but have everybody by the you know whats to install them anyway? In this case this is a new microwave, what happens if the homeowner has older equipment? What happens if I were to buy a commercial product and use it in my home?

As far as I'm concerned it should be three strikes and you are out. If an EC has tried three times to mitigate the problem in good faith then the AFCI device gets thrown in the garbage and replaced with a standard one. If we had this option then you would see how fast these problems get resolved. :thumbsup:

-Hal

I'd rather see a rudimentary sprinkler system in residential than a single AFCI, at least your money would be going to a safety device that actually works and has proven to save lives.

AFCI should stand for "Another Fouled Circuit Investigated".

 

[mbrooke]

hahaha!




I'd rather see a rudimentary sprinkler system in residential than a single AFCI, at least your money would be going to a safety device that actually works and has proven to save lives.

AFCI should stand for "Another Fouled Circuit Investigated".

X2. Sprinklers would save so many lives in this country statistics would drop to the lowest of any nation. The fact people aren't protesting over their removal in US building codes both infuriates and flabbergasts me. I would gladly ditch my stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops for a sprinkler system.