You have to use square D AFCIs

[GoldDigger]

X2. Sprinklers would save so many lives in this country statistics would drop to the lowest of any nation. The fact people aren't protesting over their removal in US building codes both infuriates and flabbergasts me. I would gladly ditch my stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops for a sprinkler system.

About 20 years ago the City of Palo Alto (CA) did some fairly extensive testing that showed that for live safety purposes in a residence, a sprinkler system plumbed inexpensively with PVC performed as well as a copper or galvanized pipe system.
Cost a lot less.

 

[mbrooke]

About 20 years ago the City of Palo Alto (CA) did some fairly extensive testing that showed that for live safety purposes in a residence, a sprinkler system plumbed inexpensively with PVC performed as well as a copper or galvanized pipe system.
Cost a lot less.

Yup. And even if you got totally hack and just tapped them off of potable domestic plumbing lines as the crow flies they would still save lives. Home fire sprinklers are perhaps the most misunderstood and most shrouded in myth life safety device.

 

[peter d]

As far as I'm concerned it should be three strikes and you are out. If an EC has tried three times to mitigate the problem in good faith then the AFCI device gets thrown in the garbage and replaced with a standard one. If we had this option then you would see how fast these problems get resolved. :thumbsup:

-Hal

You have more patience than I do, I would have pulled the AFCI and replaced it with a regular breaker after the first sign of trouble.

 

[peter d]

We would prevent way more fires with 100% GFCI that with AFCIs that do not have GFP.

Which begs the question why the industry didn't move in that direction in the first place.

 

[JFletcher]

X2. Sprinklers would save so many lives in this country statistics would drop to the lowest of any nation. The fact people aren't protesting over their removal in US building codes both infuriates and flabbergasts me. I would gladly ditch my stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops for a sprinkler system.

You'd think plumbers would be pushing for resi sprinklers for safety reasons, and more work. AFCI would have as much acceptance as GFCI if they worked the way they are supposed to, and w/o nuisance trips.

Sprinkler heads are suppression, your only line of defense once a fire, of nearly any nature, has started (not gonna be effective if you are making your own biodiesel or have 55 gallon drums of magnesium powder ablaze in your basement!). Detectors are annunciation, and they help big time, but are easy to defeat/neglect.

Back on topic, I would ask the microwave mfg for a full refund as it's completely unreasonable to require the HO to use X brand electrical equipment, especially when not mentioned in the installation instructions, which imo would be illegal anyway.

AFCI need to get on the same page, have standardized trip characteristics that are ideal for detecting true faults while minimizing or eliminating false trips or, as Hal mentioned, at least make a good "THUD" sound when hitting the bottom of the dumpster. The breaker mfg could work together to design a GREAT AFCI, and I wouldnt care if the only difference was the name stamped on the case; they'd still be required and 40$ a pop, everyone gets their share, the HO gets a product that actually improves safety, and there would never be another thread of this type on the MH forum or Internet again.

Wish in one hand...

eta: can you imagine an auto forum having threads like "My Ford Focus knocks on Fram Filters", and the recommendation was to change to AC-Delco or MotorCraft? Years ago, this did happen, with Chrysler Minivans melting engines with Fram filters. Turns out Fram wasnt building their product to Chrysler's specs. The problem here is the mfg arent talking to the breaker companies, there are no specs, and the EC and end-user are caught eating it all.

 

[peter d]

Simple solution. Just install subpanels from all the manufacturers. Connect the five(?) panels using nipples out the bottom to a 6" trough. Now the home owner can buy anything they want. Might cost a lot and look hideous in their family room but at least they won't have a code violation.

That is a great option and by far the best solution proposed.

 

[JFletcher]

That is a great option and by far the best solution proposed.

View attachment 17244

Simple solution. Just install subpanels from all the manufacturers. Connect the five(?) panels using nipples out the bottom to a 6" trough. Now the home owner can buy anything they want. Might cost a lot and look hideous in their family room but at least they won't have a code violation.

You need all the old obsolete panels too, like Pushmatic, Bryant, Bulldog, Zinsco, FPE, etc, to run the old equipment that wont work with new electrical panels. and a triple split bus CH ca 1970 to play your 33rpm records without harmonic buzz.


Just hang a life sized autographed copy of Fire Marshall Mathers over it all.

 

[mbrooke]

Which begs the question why the industry didn't move in that direction in the first place.

Because it would actually reduce fires so drastically that there wouldn't be anymore safety products and code mandates to push. What polarizes me in that direction is the strong bias out there toward sprinklers.

 

[JFletcher]

Because it would actually reduce fires so drastically that there wouldn't be anymore safety products and code mandates to push. What polarizes me in that direction is the strong bias out there toward sprinklers.

I'd agree with collusion between the various trades/mfgs except that commercial installs are still code-driven. Any installation can be made safer, tho at some point there is a crossing of curves between actual safety and cost, e.g., requiring all residential wiring to be in RMC, metal stud construction, double 5/8ths drywall, 760 fire alarm system, fully sprinkled, etc. Sure, we could require this, but your basic house would cost 3x what it does now.

AFCI and sprinklers are not in competition with each other as they perform two separate and distinct roles. Neither are a substitute for the other. Just that, for the time being, one is a heck of a lot better than the other.

 

[mbrooke]

You'd think plumbers would be pushing for resi sprinklers for safety reasons, and more work. AFCI would have as much acceptance as GFCI if they worked the way they are supposed to, and w/o nuisance trips.

As would fire fighters, paramedics, burn victims and many others. But I hear crickets in that respect. Yet come AFCIs there is plenty to protest about:


http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com...im-opposes-removal-afci-requirement/71378320/

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/31/burn-victims/

I have yet to find attorneys eager to gobble up sprinkler claims, but the business is ripe for AFCI claims:

http://www.arnolditkin.com/personal-injury-blog/2016/may/afcis-could-save-your-life/

Both AFCIs and GFCIs were created to protect people and property in America from injury, damage, and tragedy due to a malfunction in your electrical system. If your home does not have ACFI and GCFI protection and you were not aware of this, or if your rental space does not have these protections and your landlord has not taken action to get them installed, then you need to hold your landlord or home developer accountable.

If you were harmed because of an electric shock because of the lack of a GCFI or your home was burned in a house fire because there was not AFCI circuit breaker installed in your home, then you need to talk to a personal injury attorney at Arnold & Itkin to discuss this issue today. At ****** , our Houston personal injury attorneys are dedicated to quality representation for all men and women across the United States.

Reason I am posting this in this thread is because apparently there are people advocating that missing AFCIs should lead to prosecution- so to the OP don't remove them :happyno::rant:

Sprinkler heads are suppression, your only line of defense once a fire, of nearly any nature, has started (not gonna be effective if you are making your own biodiesel or have 55 gallon drums of magnesium powder ablaze in your basement!). Detectors are annunciation, and they help big time, but are easy to defeat/neglect.

Back on topic, I would ask the microwave mfg for a full refund as it's completely unreasonable to require the HO to use X brand electrical equipment, especially when not mentioned in the installation instructions, which imo would be illegal anyway.

Its said the the bulk of residential fires have nothing to do with electrical. Electrical gets a bad rap because most fires are not meticulously inspected, and where a cause can not be immediately determined "electrical" takes the fall.

AFCI need to get on the same page, have standardized trip characteristics that are ideal for detecting true faults while minimizing or eliminating false trips or, as Hal mentioned, at least make a good "THUD" sound when hitting the bottom of the dumpster. The breaker mfg could work together to design a GREAT AFCI, and I wouldnt care if the only difference was the name stamped on the case; they'd still be required and 40$ a pop, everyone gets their share, the HO gets a product that actually improves safety, and there would never be another thread of this type on the MH forum or Internet again.

They can't even define what a "true fault" ought to look like because the only arcing faults that can reliably be measured are in labs with 15kv neon gas transformers. Now should there be at minimum some set standard after 20+ years of AFCI theory? There should be, but UL has other interests...

Wish in one hand...

eta: can you imagine an auto forum having threads like "My Ford Focus knocks on Fram Filters", and the recommendation was to change to AC-Delco or MotorCraft? Years ago, this did happen, with Chrysler Minivans melting engines with Fram filters. Turns out Fram wasnt building their product to Chrysler's specs. The problem here is the mfg arent talking to the breaker companies, there are no specs, and the EC and end-user are caught eating it all.

Sadly yes. There is no way out of it, especially now that some people are boasting unfounded litigation. Best bet for the OP would be a subpanel as mentioned and a square D AFCI.

 

[mbrooke]

I'd agree with collusion between the various trades/mfgs except that commercial installs are still code-driven. Any installation can be made safer, tho at some point there is a crossing of curves between actual safety and cost, e.g., requiring all residential wiring to be in RMC, metal stud construction, double 5/8ths drywall, 760 fire alarm system, fully sprinkled, etc. Sure, we could require this, but your basic house would cost 3x what it does now.

AFCI and sprinklers are not in competition with each other as they perform two separate and distinct roles. Neither are a substitute for the other. Just that, for the time being, one is a heck of a lot better than the other.

In my eyes sprinklers stop the danger in its tracks, close to 100% of the time and that has been proven time and time again. The worst causalities have always without a doubt in un-sprinkled buildings regardless the cause. We can encase every splice in concrete, but nothing will stop someone from dropping a cigarette on a couch, falling asleep while cooking or knocking over candles.

The reason why home sprinklers are cited as high cost is that they are measured agaisnt commercial codes which are gross over kill for resi. A simple 10GPM sprinkler in the room of the initiating fire can make all the difference in the world.

 

[peter d]

People will simply hire a handyman and pay cash to have these problems eliminated.

 

[JFletcher]

In my eyes sprinklers stop the danger in its tracks, close to 100% of the time and that has been proven time and time again. The worst causalities have always without a doubt in un-sprinkled buildings regardless the cause. We can encase every splice in concrete, but nothing will stop someone from dropping a cigarette on a couch, falling asleep while cooking or knocking over candles.

The reason why home sprinklers are cited as high cost is that they are measured agaisnt commercial codes which are gross over kill for resi. A simple 10GPM sprinkler in the room of the initiating fire can make all the difference in the world.

Agree. Resi sprinkler systems would need perhaps a check valve (much like toilets have) to prevent siphoning of stagnant water back into the PW supply, perhaps a pressure tank for well water applications. They dont need be engineered as commercial are; how often is water pressure lost to a residence?

 

[mbrooke]

Agree. Resi sprinkler systems would need perhaps a check valve (much like toilets have) to prevent siphoning of stagnant water back into the PW supply, perhaps a pressure tank for well water applications. They dont need be engineered as commercial are; how often is water pressure lost to a residence?

Flow meter and check valve if you have a separate system beside the normal plumbing. The rest can be done in PEX or PVC as water will be coming out well before you burn through sheet rock. But, does a 2 foot branch off of a main plumbing pipe really need a siphon break?

 

[mbrooke]

People will simply hire a handyman and pay cash to have these problems eliminated.

Yup, leading to more hackwork The only plus is that there are people out there willing to pay for AFCI (believe in them, do not question established norms) hence its a handsome up-sell for sparkies, but not everyone in joe public thinks like that. X share will go to none licensed folks.

 

[JFletcher]

Flow meter and check valve if you have a separate system beside the normal plumbing. The rest can be done in PEX or PVC as water will be coming out well before you burn through sheet rock. But, does a 2 foot branch off of a main plumbing pipe really need a siphon break?

To paraphrase Lynyrd Skynyrd:

"I know little 'bout sprinklers, and baby I'll guess the rest"

Probably not quite as simple as we make it out to be. I'm sure there are numerous code violations with our "basic" setup, but we do not need a full commercial setup in residential to be much safer.

 

[JFletcher]

People will simply hire a handyman and pay cash to have these problems eliminated.

Hypothetically, would it be illegal to say to a HO "I cant legally remove this AFCI breaker, but YOU can, and here's exactly how you do it..." ?

 

[mbrooke]

To paraphrase Lynyrd Skynyrd:

"I know little 'bout sprinklers, and baby I'll guess the rest"

Probably not quite as simple as we make it out to be. I'm sure there are numerous code violations with our "basic" setup, but we do not need a full commercial setup in residential to be much safer.

There are code violations, and in some cases lots, but one must ask: whats the difference between a code violation and actual danger? To bring down the cost you will need to remove the none essentials.



http://ccwd.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/factsheet-sprinkler1.pdf

 

[growler]

The reason I suggested GE is because they do not use gfp in their afci. The others still use gfp as far as I know....

One of the Eaton lines no longer has GFP.

My only problem with that is that, in my opinion, the GFP is by far the most important part...the only part that really has a chance of clearing the fault before a fire starts. I think it was removed because they can pass the tests required by the UL standard without it, and because the removal prevents it from tripping as a result of common wiring errors. We would prevent way more fires with 100% GFCI that with AFCIs that do not have GFP.

It would be interesting to know if this is a ground fault problem with this microwave.

If it is a ground fault problem then the microwave is just a piece of crap and should be replaced.

I have seen a couple that would not work on a GFCI protected receptacle. Normally a defect of some sort.

He used a siemens breaker that should have a fault code.

 

[growler]

Hypothetically, would it be illegal to say to a HO "I cant legally remove this AFCI breaker, but YOU can, and here's exactly how you do it..." ?

Is Big Brother really watching? I wouldn't want it known that I advised a customer to remove safety equipment.