You have to use square D AFCIs

[K8MHZ]

eta: can you imagine an auto forum having threads like "My Ford Focus knocks on Fram Filters", and the recommendation was to change to AC-Delco or MotorCraft? Years ago, this did happen, with Chrysler Minivans melting engines with Fram filters. Turns out Fram wasnt building their product to Chrysler's specs. The problem here is the mfg arent talking to the breaker companies, there are no specs, and the EC and end-user are caught eating it all.

Well, when I worked for Chrysler, the reason Frams weren't allowed wasn't about mini vans, it was about the 5.9L Cummins diesel. We had to extract pieces of Fram filters from the inside of the engines because Fram made crappy filters. Should Chrysler pay for a new engine when the reason for its destruction was metal oil filter pieces getting sucked into the engine?

I actually thought about that when I read the reply the mfgr. sent to the OP.

 

[kwired]

The reason I suggested GE is because they do not use gfp in their afci. The others still use gfp as far as I know....

hahaha!




I'd rather see a rudimentary sprinkler system in residential than a single AFCI, at least your money would be going to a safety device that actually works and has proven to save lives.

AFCI should stand for "Another Fouled Circuit Investigated".

count me in on requiring sprinkler systems before AFCI's

Agree. Resi sprinkler systems would need perhaps a check valve (much like toilets have) to prevent siphoning of stagnant water back into the PW supply, perhaps a pressure tank for well water applications. They dont need be engineered as commercial are; how often is water pressure lost to a residence?

City water systems, almost never, private water systems, sometimes quite often. I have lost water at least once a year with my private well. Stopped buying a certain brand of submersible pumps and that has helped some. Put on a variable frequency drive, that did help some. Last couple times it was out was failed splices between pump leads and the submersible cable - think the VFD possibly contributes to this.

It would be interesting to know if this is a ground fault problem with this microwave.

If it is a ground fault problem then the microwave is just a piece of crap and should be replaced.

I have seen a couple that would not work on a GFCI protected receptacle. Normally a defect of some sort.

He used a siemens breaker that should have a fault code.

Couple things with a microwave could be inductive kickback or too low instantaneous trip setting of the breaker. I don't know if AFCI's use the same IT setting as their "standard breaker" counter parts or not, if they lower it for some reason that would be a good reason to not play well with inductive loads.

 

[JFletcher]

Is Big Brother really watching? I wouldn't want it known that I advised a customer to remove safety equipment.

True. I was just pondering the ramifications of the customer (end user) doing the work vs us.

I have a riding mower that has pretty much no safeguards, like the seat kill switch. Can cut in reverse. Will keep running if upside down. Basically, like how every one rolled out of a factory 30+ years ago. It's a free country, tho dont ever ask to borrow it as it's a death machine.

I'd NEVER advise a customer remove "safety equipment", but if he should happen to hear me talking about general disdain of AFCI breakers while watching me change a breaker in the panel, and put two and two together, oh well. :angel:

On a more serious note, I'd probably exhaust every possibility before canning an AFCI breaker. I love troubleshooting so much I'd probably do it for free, and sometimes do. Women read romance novels, I like a good mystery that isnt in print.

 

[JFletcher]

Well, when I worked for Chrysler, the reason Frams weren't allowed wasn't about mini vans, it was about the 5.9L Cummins diesel. We had to extract pieces of Fram filters from the inside of the engines because Fram made crappy filters. Should Chrysler pay for a new engine when the reason for its destruction was metal oil filter pieces getting sucked into the engine?

I actually thought about that when I read the reply the mfgr. sent to the OP.

Yep, back in the day (mid 80s), Fram filters were not to mfg specs, and caused a ton of problems. The 1st gen minivans, my mom had one, had a Fram filter. They werent made right, which resulted in too little oil going to the top end (head), and engine lock and rebuild to the tune of $3k. When hers blew up, there were 5 other minivans in the dealership with the exact same problem. When the cam welds itself to the head, there is a problem haha. eta: fram and chrysler went round and round, ultimately it was Fram's fault for not building to Chrysler's specs.

 

[seth207]

Many towns in southern Maine are requiring sprinkler systems in New construction homes.

Water is contained in giant plastic tanks in basement.

I believe Massachusetts req then as well in residential.




Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[mbrooke]

Many towns in southern Maine are requiring sprinkler systems in New construction homes.

Water is contained in giant plastic tanks in basement.

I believe Massachusetts req then as well in residential.




Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Plastic whaaaa? :blink: Are these water well homes?

 

[hbiss]

Reason I am posting this in this thread is because apparently there are people advocating that missing AFCIs should lead to prosecution- so to the OP don't remove them

Yet another reason these things shouldn't have seen the light of day. Just opens up a whole can of worms. You have ignorant people testifying that if they were installed they wouldn't have been injured. Then, even if you are in a state that exempts AFCIs, these ambulance chasers will go after you if there is a supposed electrical fire and you didn't install them- on the premise that nothing says that you can't and you should have known better.

If law suits start happening more frequently watch our insurance rates go through the roof.

-Hal

 

[mbrooke]

Yet another reason these things shouldn't have seen the light of day. Just opens up a whole can of worms. You have ignorant people testifying that if they were installed they wouldn't have been injured. Then, even if you are in a state that exempts AFCIs, these ambulance chasers will go after you if there is a supposed electrical fire and you didn't install them- on the premise that nothing says that you can't and you should have known better.

If law suits start happening more frequently watch our insurance rates go through the roof.

-Hal

Its all about making $$$$ by playing off of victims and non experts. Me thinks the powers that be are catching on to the fact some people are desperately trying to keep them out of their finished job or home. So might as well use litigation to force compliance in sales. At least thats how it appears at the moment.

 

[kwired]

Plastic whaaaa? :blink: Are these water well homes?

Or maybe not enough supply line capacity if on a municipal water system? Some have gone on about how much capacity a municipality must supply before, but old existing lines are still out there regardless.

 

[mbrooke]

Or maybe not enough supply line capacity if on a municipal water system? Some have gone on about how much capacity a municipality must supply before, but old existing lines are still out there regardless.

True, but to be honest at the same time a lot of resi systems end up as over kill.

 

[kwired]

True, but to be honest at the same time a lot of resi systems end up as over kill.

Funny thing is the last house I lived in you couldn't run many fixtures at a time or the pressure dropped fairly significantly. Yet I remember when working on a new house about a block away they ended up putting a pressure regulator on the incoming line because pressure was too high. Both houses at close to same elevation so I would assume about same pressure, I still have to wonder if there wasn't a kink in my supply line or something like that. I know it was poly tubing. I think it was only a 3/4 inch line, but I know of other homes with same size line and they didn't have that bad of pressure drop when using multiple fixtures.

 

[mbrooke]

Funny thing is the last house I lived in you couldn't run many fixtures at a time or the pressure dropped fairly significantly. Yet I remember when working on a new house about a block away they ended up putting a pressure regulator on the incoming line because pressure was too high. Both houses at close to same elevation so I would assume about same pressure, I still have to wonder if there wasn't a kink in my supply line or something like that. I know it was poly tubing. I think it was only a 3/4 inch line, but I know of other homes with same size line and they didn't have that bad of pressure drop when using multiple fixtures.

Underground valve outside might not have been open all the way, or at least thats my best guess with the limited knowledge I have of plumbing. But, considering that some of the most deadliest fires happen at night, its not likely that multiple plumbing fixtures will be running when one is sleeping.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Because it would actually reduce fires so drastically that there wouldn't be anymore safety products and code mandates to push. What polarizes me in that direction is the strong bias out there toward sprinklers.

Not really...the dwelling unit fires that are said to be of electrical origin are about 12% of the total dwelling unit fires. So even a device or devices that would prevent 100% of the fires of electrical origin would not come close to solving the problem.

 

[peter d]

Not really...the dwelling unit fires that are said to be of electrical origin are about 12% of the total dwelling unit fires. So even a device or devices that would prevent 100% of the fires of electrical origin would not come close to solving the problem.

And of those 12%, how many are from portable versus premises wiring? The number gets even smaller.

 

[hbiss]

AFCI, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

-Hal

 

[JFletcher]

AFCI, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

-Hal

Better yet:

AFCI: *might* prevent at very best 50% of total electrical fires (6% overall fires), dozen of them by 2014 Code costs $500+
Sprinklers: *will* stop 90% of ALL fires. Cost ????, doesnt matter, 90 to 6 isnt even a question.

Hopefully AFCI will stay out of commercial/industrial forever in sprinkled/760 FA installed buildings.

 

[mbrooke]

Not really...the dwelling unit fires that are said to be of electrical origin are about 12% of the total dwelling unit fires. So even a device or devices that would prevent 100% of the fires of electrical origin would not come close to solving the problem.

I know, hence why I am pushing (making the comparison to prove a point) fire sprinklers. I thought Peter D was referring to fire sprinklers as the thread went in that direction so I glossed over your GFP quote. :ashamed1::ashamed1: But you would be correct none the less. True electrical fires are a minority rather than a majority in home fires.

 

[mbrooke]

Better yet:

AFCI: *might* prevent at very best 50% of total electrical fires (6% overall fires), dozen of them by 2014 Code costs $500+
Sprinklers: *will* stop 90% of ALL fires. Cost ????, doesnt matter, 90 to 6 isnt even a question.

Hopefully AFCI will stay out of commercial/industrial forever in sprinkled/760 FA installed buildings.

I'm with Hbiss on this one. Its said that 90% of direct electrical fires are from joule heating. Joule heating in itself produces absolutely no arcing signature, and I can say that with confidence since patents by Eaton openly admit an AFCI will not detect a high resistance glowing connection. So in truth AFCIs will not stop those 90% of direct (in wall) electrical fires, making them less than 1% effective, assuming they have GFP.

 

[mbrooke]

And of those 12%, how many are from portable versus premises wiring? The number gets even smaller.

Asking all the right questions as always :thumbsup:

 

[mkgrady]

Update

Update

The Siemens breaker that I replaced is tripping. I asked the home owner to go to his appliance supplier to see if they will pay for the panel replacement to Square D. He sort of laughed. Of course nobody thinks the supplier will pay. I think the owner is knowledgeable enough to know how to make it stop tripping once the final inspection is complete.

What gets me is that this supplier probably sells hundreds of these "special" microwaves every year.