jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Your most observed code violation?
Roger
It doesn't. Read 220.82 of the '05
Roger
It doesn't. Read 220.82 of the '05
Your most observed code violation?
- Thread starter GG
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Your most observed code violation?
Leap frogging again. :roll:
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Your most observed code violation?
The last five post above is due to me posting in the wrong thread.
To get things back on the right track I can see that this could be a very BIG CODE VIOLATION.
For details
click here
The last five post above is due to me posting in the wrong thread.
To get things back on the right track I can see that this could be a very BIG CODE VIOLATION.
For details
click here
paul
Senior Member
- Location
- Snohomish, WA
Re: Your most observed code violation?
I see those too. Many times the box is overfilled I look at it and say to myself, 'no way am I going to shove all those wires back into that box while they're live.' So I grab one or two goof rings (ext rings) and gingerly put them on and cover the box. YUCK!
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: Your most observed code violation?
See Here UL EMT Fittings
UL revised the way EMT fitting are listed. Not every compression type EMT fitting is raintight now. If you need a raintight fitting, always check the box for the word Raintight.
See Here UL EMT Fittings
Re: Your most observed code violation?
Roger:
I write specifications for most of the projects I design. Most of the important stuff I try to put on the drawings. And the better electricians usually don't need the specs to tell them to do things like de-burr the conduit ends, or to label wires and breakers. So sometimes it really seems like a waste of time to write specs when I'm not really sure if the electrician who does the work will actually read them.
Steve
Roger:
I write specifications for most of the projects I design. Most of the important stuff I try to put on the drawings. And the better electricians usually don't need the specs to tell them to do things like de-burr the conduit ends, or to label wires and breakers. So sometimes it really seems like a waste of time to write specs when I'm not really sure if the electrician who does the work will actually read them.
Steve
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Your most observed code violation?
It seems like it is always a running battle to get field people to actually install things according to the drawings. They seem to have their own ideas about how to do it. I usually just change the drawings to reflect how they actually did it. Less of a battle that way.
I have often wondered if I should start sending the contractors a bill for the drawing changes they caused.
It seems like it is always a running battle to get field people to actually install things according to the drawings. They seem to have their own ideas about how to do it. I usually just change the drawings to reflect how they actually did it. Less of a battle that way.
I have often wondered if I should start sending the contractors a bill for the drawing changes they caused.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Your most observed code violation?
Sometimes the drawings do not reflect what will actually be there after the plumber runs thier drain lines with proper pitch and hvac is in same area, now here comes the dumb electrician.He has to run racks of conduit that take up 50 % of the space alloted.Since pitch is not an issue we stay straight and true,But here comes drain lines that at the start at 180 are fine but add the required pitch and they inevitably fall dead center of our pipe rack
That`s why we have as builts changes are a given,who`s to pay well let the boss figure it out.The field guys have to just make it happen GITERDONE and let the billing depts hammer out the detais.I have been involved in everything from tract homes to fuel distribution depots.
The only difference is material and code oh yeah and the amount of $ Call me a romex jockey,call be a pipe bender call me sparky I answer to all of the above.To me we all fall under 1 catagory electricians , Take a pie guy and put him in a house he`s lost.Now take a romex jockey and put him in a mall and he is also lost.Take a guy that can go to either he can be called an electrician
Sometimes the drawings do not reflect what will actually be there after the plumber runs thier drain lines with proper pitch and hvac is in same area, now here comes the dumb electrician.He has to run racks of conduit that take up 50 % of the space alloted.Since pitch is not an issue we stay straight and true,But here comes drain lines that at the start at 180 are fine but add the required pitch and they inevitably fall dead center of our pipe rack
That`s why we have as builts changes are a given,who`s to pay well let the boss figure it out.The field guys have to just make it happen GITERDONE and let the billing depts hammer out the detais.I have been involved in everything from tract homes to fuel distribution depots.
The only difference is material and code oh yeah and the amount of $
Call me a romex jockey,call be a pipe bender call me sparky I answer to all of the above.To me we all fall under 1 catagory electricians , Take a pie guy and put him in a house he`s lost.Now take a romex jockey and put him in a mall and he is also lost.Take a guy that can go to either he can be called an electrician southernboys
Senior Member
Re: Your most observed code violation?
Bob if you guys the engineers knew the hassles we have to deal with because of you guys not talking to each other youd know why there so many changes to your prints. Ive got a set of prints right now that the darned engineer obviously has never heard of a 4way switch which is what has to be used in the aplication im wiring for. So do I fix it or fail my final cause of some guy who went to school but has never worked in the field?
Bob if you guys the engineers knew the hassles we have to deal with because of you guys not talking to each other youd know why there so many changes to your prints. Ive got a set of prints right now that the darned engineer obviously has never heard of a 4way switch which is what has to be used in the aplication im wiring for. So do I fix it or fail my final cause of some guy who went to school but has never worked in the field?
Re: Your most observed code violation?
Steve, your specifications (as well as the others sections) are part of the contract documents and should be enforced.
If a contractor chose to ignor your written words as to where he can or can not use an item or a method, he should be busted on it and forced to correct the error.
If liquidated damages are involved the specifications from the general requirements to the last page can play a big part of who will bear part or all of them.
An example could be; If a contractor won a bid by ignoring the specifications where all feeders are called to be RMC and he used EMT, he should be forced to correct it monetarily (labor and material) or remove and replace at his expense.
He has taken the job away from those who bid per plans and specs and has attempted to give the designers and owner a sub par product simply because he didn't read them in the bid or installation phases of the project.
Roger
Steve, your specifications (as well as the others sections) are part of the contract documents and should be enforced.
If a contractor chose to ignor your written words as to where he can or can not use an item or a method, he should be busted on it and forced to correct the error.
If liquidated damages are involved the specifications from the general requirements to the last page can play a big part of who will bear part or all of them.
An example could be; If a contractor won a bid by ignoring the specifications where all feeders are called to be RMC and he used EMT, he should be forced to correct it monetarily (labor and material) or remove and replace at his expense.
He has taken the job away from those who bid per plans and specs and has attempted to give the designers and owner a sub par product simply because he didn't read them in the bid or installation phases of the project.
Roger
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Your most observed code violation?
I don't disagree that occasionally those who design buildings do not talk with each other thus requiring a certain amount of field changes to accomodate these kind of problems. I accept that those things happen.
What irks me is when a contractor just arbitrarily decides how he will wire stuff, often substantially different than is what on the drawings. The kind of stuff I do is not rocket science (for the most part anyway). The field drawings are rarely that difficult to follow. I have had contractors decide to ignore things like notes about putting in spare wires, and it is not discovered until the second phase of a project goes in and the spare wires from the first phase install are missing.
The worst was a guy that decided to run redundant I/O cables in the same conduit to save money, despite a note indicating not only should they be in seperate conduits but that the conduits should be routed so they are seperated by at least 10 feet except at the terminal points. Fortunately, I was not paying for that one and the end user had to solve that mess and not me.
I don't disagree that occasionally those who design buildings do not talk with each other thus requiring a certain amount of field changes to accomodate these kind of problems. I accept that those things happen.
What irks me is when a contractor just arbitrarily decides how he will wire stuff, often substantially different than is what on the drawings. The kind of stuff I do is not rocket science (for the most part anyway). The field drawings are rarely that difficult to follow. I have had contractors decide to ignore things like notes about putting in spare wires, and it is not discovered until the second phase of a project goes in and the spare wires from the first phase install are missing.
The worst was a guy that decided to run redundant I/O cables in the same conduit to save money, despite a note indicating not only should they be in seperate conduits but that the conduits should be routed so they are seperated by at least 10 feet except at the terminal points. Fortunately, I was not paying for that one and the end user had to solve that mess and not me.
Re: Your most observed code violation?
I agree, Roger. But again I try to put big stuff like EMT or RMC on the drawings for convienence, and so it doesn't get missed and result in lawsuits.
On the jobs where the electrician does a good job, I can usually write the specs, and then never have to pull them out again. It's just not obvious to me if the electrician read the specs, or if they are just in the habit of providing quality work.
Steve
I agree, Roger. But again I try to put big stuff like EMT or RMC on the drawings for convienence, and so it doesn't get missed and result in lawsuits.
On the jobs where the electrician does a good job, I can usually write the specs, and then never have to pull them out again. It's just not obvious to me if the electrician read the specs, or if they are just in the habit of providing quality work.
Steve
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Your most observed code violation?
I try to avoid writing specs anymore. I have found over the years that it's near impossible to write a decent spec in a reasonable amount of time.
IMO, it is far better to hire a contractor who will just do it "right", and have more of a scope of work instead of a spec. This is not always easy to do though. There are a lot of sharp ECs out there who will do things I do not like to shave a few bucks off the project. I have developed in my head a laundry list of things I do not want to see done (like using the conduit as an EGC) and these get prominent locations in the written specs.
The last one I wrote a few years ago was only 6 or 8 pages long. And very little of it was boilerplate like most specs. And a couple of pages was pictures of the existing installation.
I try to avoid writing specs anymore. I have found over the years that it's near impossible to write a decent spec in a reasonable amount of time.
IMO, it is far better to hire a contractor who will just do it "right", and have more of a scope of work instead of a spec. This is not always easy to do though. There are a lot of sharp ECs out there who will do things I do not like to shave a few bucks off the project. I have developed in my head a laundry list of things I do not want to see done (like using the conduit as an EGC) and these get prominent locations in the written specs.
The last one I wrote a few years ago was only 6 or 8 pages long. And very little of it was boilerplate like most specs. And a couple of pages was pictures of the existing installation.
Re: Your most observed code violation?
When we write specs, we use a program where you just check the boxes for items you want to include. Sometimes I have to get creative and add a sentance or two, but there is very little writing involved.
When we write specs, we use a program where you just check the boxes for items you want to include. Sometimes I have to get creative and add a sentance or two, but there is very little writing involved.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Your most observed code violation?
If I did enough of them, it might be worth buying the software.
way cool.
If I did enough of them, it might be worth buying the software.
physis
Senior Member
Re: Your most observed code violation?
I can't even imagine being let off the hook for doing something in disregard of the drawings. I'm guessing you don't even get as much as a phone call before it's decided to ignore the drawings.
Edit:
[ June 28, 2005, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
Either that or use different contractors.
I can't even imagine being let off the hook for doing something in disregard of the drawings. I'm guessing you don't even get as much as a phone call before it's decided to ignore the drawings.
Edit:
[ June 28, 2005, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
southernboys
Senior Member
Re: Your most observed code violation?
I agree with what you guys are saying in regard to emt vs mc or spare wires. I just know from personal experience that it is easy to overlook adding a 3w or 4w switch. Or putting a stair landing light on its own to me that should be on a 3w and thats what I put it on
I agree with what you guys are saying in regard to emt vs mc or spare wires. I just know from personal experience that it is easy to overlook adding a 3w or 4w switch. Or putting a stair landing light on its own to me that should be on a 3w and thats what I put it on
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Your most observed code violation?
there is a big difference in wiring a house and wiring a machine though. generally no one cares if they get updated drawings on a house. the field changes are not such a big deal.
with a machine, it is critical to get accurate drawings so that downtime is reduced.
there is a big difference in wiring a house and wiring a machine though. generally no one cares if they get updated drawings on a house. the field changes are not such a big deal.
with a machine, it is critical to get accurate drawings so that downtime is reduced.
physis
Senior Member
Re: Your most observed code violation?
That's very true. I've had to provide drawings to municipalities at times and when changes were made they literally declined to take the revisions.
That's probaly one of the reasons you can all but never get drawings for a residence from the building dept.
Edit: extra word that time.
[ June 28, 2005, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
That's very true. I've had to provide drawings to municipalities at times and when changes were made they literally declined to take the revisions.
That's probaly one of the reasons you can all but never get drawings for a residence from the building dept.
Edit: extra word that time.
[ June 28, 2005, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Your most observed code violation?
Following the scope of work is what we are contracted to do.There will always be changes in a project from drawing board,to the field.To arbitraraly leave out what is speced and what is paid for is im my opinion criminal.We as ec`s are paid for an install and if billed for and not there that is in itself is criminal
Years ago I quit 7/8 of the way through an apartment building in NYC,we were upgrading the service aand sub panels to the 48 apts.It was called adequate wiring upgrade.2 lighting/recp.cts.2 kitchen cts.one a/c recp.outlet.
The service entered a P.O.E. box on one side of the building water entered from other side almost 250 ft.The only service ground that was allowed was the water main and the grounding conductor was to be the same size as the ungrounded conductor in this case 350 mcm.I went on a few days vacation and the owner had filled in for me
I guess it passed and 3 weeks later the building was occupied,I wonder what that flagrent action has created over the years.
Mind you this was all old style bx no grounding conductor just a hot a neutral and a armored case ground. How does this relate to the original thread well if someone is willing to cut corners like that what other horrors are out there
Following the scope of work is what we are contracted to do.There will always be changes in a project from drawing board,to the field.To arbitraraly leave out what is speced and what is paid for is im my opinion criminal.We as ec`s are paid for an install and if billed for and not there that is in itself is criminal
Years ago I quit 7/8 of the way through an apartment building in NYC,we were upgrading the service aand sub panels to the 48 apts.It was called adequate wiring upgrade.2 lighting/recp.cts.2 kitchen cts.one a/c recp.outlet.
The service entered a P.O.E. box on one side of the building water entered from other side almost 250 ft.The only service ground that was allowed was the water main and the grounding conductor was to be the same size as the ungrounded conductor in this case 350 mcm.I went on a few days vacation and the owner had filled in for me
I guess it passed and 3 weeks later the building was occupied,I wonder what that flagrent action has created over the years.
Mind you this was all old style bx no grounding conductor just a hot a neutral and a armored case ground.
How does this relate to the original thread well if someone is willing to cut corners like that what other horrors are out there- Status