A change.. 680.26 Graphic

[Dennis Alwon]

What i think is Mike changed it for graphic clarity.....nothing more.

Are you a politician now. IF he showed bonding ( not donding) of the window and doors in one graphics and not in the newer version it isn't because of clarity. I believe he must have had a change in his interpretation of that section unless something in the 2008 made him think differently.

It's okay to be wrong. In fact, I thought I made a mistake once but I was wrong.

 

[M. D.]

The reason it was removed is because Mike wanted it removed. I was part of the discussion.

Well what Mike wants Mike gets ,... the question is why was it wanted and why after all these years .. or was the discussion more on the lines of a directive ....Don't ask don't tell .

I find it hard to believe that I'm the only code geek who noticed such a large and controversial change

 

[radiopet]

Plus it is just not practicle to think you need to bond the window frame or door frame.....just not required.

I happen to know Mike agree's and is why it was removed......

 

[radiopet]

Are you a politician now. IF he showed bonding ( not donding) of the window and doors in one graphics and not in the newer version it isn't because of clarity. I believe he must have had a change in his interpretation of that section unless something in the 2008 made him think differently.

It's okay to be wrong. In fact, I thought I made a mistake once but I was wrong.

lol....yeah just write my name in on the 2008 ballot......
I think if you want to bond the metal frame of the buildings windows...go for it just as you can bond the metal siding if you wish.
But i never bonded door frames or windows just because mikes images showed it.....i just like the 2008 image better......more logical bonding scheme for teaching students.

 

[frizbeedog]

680.26(B)(7) is Metal Wiring methods and Equipment. I don't think doors and windows are a part of that.

Yea, under the section heading for equipment.

But when I saw the phrase

....and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded.

I got all excited. :smile:

Where was the requirement in the 2005? I don't have one handy.

 

[radiopet]

Just out of curiosity, don't you guys install spell checkers? Every time I misspell a word it automatically underlines the word with a red line, then I just right-click it and gives me a lists of what it thinks I'm trying to spell.

Sorry....I did not realize we had a spelling bee going on. Besides I am on the road using my Motorola Q and all thumbs. I dont have a spell checker option tonight

 

[M. D.]

I know several inspectors that hung a hat on that graphic for fence and door frame bonding ,.. I hope Mike will elaborate on it the next time this question appears in a newsletter or article for EC&M....This will undoubtedly cause confusion in the field ,,.not a god ,..but a guru for sure.

 

[frizbeedog]

Sorry....Besides I am on the road using my Motorola Q and all thumbs. I dont have a spell checker option tonight

I'll alert the other drivers. :smile:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

lol....yeah just write my name in on the 2008 ballot......
I think if you want to bond the metal frame of the buildings windows...go for it just as you can bond the metal siding if you wish.
But i never bonded door frames or windows just because mikes images showed it.....i just like the 2008 image better......more logical bonding scheme for teaching students.

I agree 100%-- I have always thought that bonding the doors and windows was an over interpretation of the code. I never said they should be bonded. I was only comment on the change in the graphics.

 

[M. D.]

See the thing is he taught that those items were required to be bonded ,.. one of the foremost code experts in the country ,..I hope he will help un- teach it

 

[radiopet]

I agree 100%-- I have always thought that bonding the doors and windows was an over interpretation of the code. I never said they should be bonded. I was only comment on the change in the graphics.

I gotcha fella...I knew what you were saying. I think the graphic is valid as it stands now...look at the bonding points on that 2008 image.....notice on the fence it is attached at the "Pole" on both the antenna and the fence...the (7) in 2008 refers to Metal-Sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded to the equipotential grid.

I think Mike realized the metal frame of the window and/door was just not a reality....but people are free to do it.

 

[frizbeedog]

See the thing is he taught that those items were required to be bonded ,.. one of the foremost code experts in the country ,..I hope he will help un- teach it

I agree. I have depended on some of those graphics to help me clarify what I supposed the text had intended.

An interpratation error all this time? I'm bummed cause I was taught this method and am wondering if I have been wasting time and material for something that was not a hazard to begin with.

Plus the fact that our customer's loved the wire and the lugs on their window and door frames.

What gives?

 

[M. D.]

Paul,..is this what makes you think the fence and antenna require bonding

(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded to the equipotential grid.

Equipment
A general term, including material, fittings, devices, appliances, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of or in connection with, an electrical installation.

If a door frame is not equipment I don't really see a fence, or an antenna as equipment either

 

[M. D.]

I agree. I have depended on some of those graphics to help me clarify what I supposed the text had intended.

An interpratation error all this time?

:smile: Mr Tom Baker.,,, pick up the phone ,..me thinks I found the graphic you have never seen:smile:

 

[radiopet]

Well considering (6) of the 680.26(B)(6) is being quite specific on the term " Electrical Equipment" ....I would venture to say that the intent of the image as it is drawn...

 

[radiopet]

lol...well MD..I find the "metal piping " fairly well taken care of in that image....and as far as that image goes.....no sorry i doing find the metal trim on a window meeting the equipment status enough for me to tell guys to bond it....lol....But I think the piping of the fence and the mast pipe of the antenna is quite clear..but maybe thats just me...heck i dont mind being wrong...lol..wife says i am wrong all the time...

 

[M. D.]

Well considering (6) of the 680.26(B)(6) is being quite specific on the term " Electrical Equipment" ....I would venture to say that the intent of the image as it is drawn...

Not sure I understand what you mean here , the intent of the graphic had been to require the window frame to be bonded ....I don't think the fence has anything to do with that aspect of the graphic

(6) Electrical Equipment. Metal parts of electrical equipment associated with the pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub water circulating system, such as water heaters, pump motors, and metal parts of pool covers shall be bonded to the equipotential grid (click here to see Fig. 23).
Exception: Metal parts of listed equipment incorporating an approved system of double insulation is not required to be bonded to the equipotential grid.
(a) Double-Insulated Water Pump Motors. Where a double-insulated water-pump motor is installed, a solid 8 AWG copper conductor from the bonding grid shall be provided for a replacement motor.
(b) Pool Water Heaters. Pool water heaters shall be grounded and bonded in accordance with equipment instructions.

 

[frizbeedog]

....But I think the piping of the fence and the mast pipe of the antenna is quite clear...

Clear as mud.

 

[radiopet]

No...what I am saying is I think Mike realized it was not practicle to require it to be bonded to the EBG.....I can't define Mikes previous intent....I can only tell you my version of the intent....
I would pull to the defined term Equipment in the 2008 NEC...
Equipment: A general term including material,fittings,devices,appliances, luminaires, apparatus,machnery, and the like.

I am not ready to consider a metal trim as equipment just yet.....now dont hang your hat on the term Material fella....

 

[frizbeedog]

I am not ready to consider a metal trim as equipment just yet.....

But a fence post is?