A change.. 680.26 Graphic
- Thread starter M. D.
- Start date
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radiopet
Senior Member
- Location
- Spotsylvania, VA
I'd agree with that.....you gonna propose it fella?
- Location
- Massachusetts
radiopet said:
It was you that started the spelling bee in this thread.
M. D.
Senior Member
radiopet said:
So if the barrier structure (fence) is 80' away it shall be bonded,. as it is really the pool-structure ???
The fence no more requires bonding than the metal window/door frame,..IMO , the graphic is not representative of the requirement it is depicting ,... bond them if you want to ,...nothing wrong with that .
I don't see the words (2008) that require the fence or the antenna to be bonded to the grid
radiopet
Senior Member
- Location
- Spotsylvania, VA
I thouht we were refering to the picture.....the comment from Mike is real life situations. In that he just felt the connection was not needed...much less in the example.
I kinda thought the reason we do all this is to figure things out....ya know...
BOB....i was asked about spelling fella so i did not know it was a spellig bee on here...lord knows i cant spell for crap with my thumbs..lol
I kinda thought the reason we do all this is to figure things out....ya know...
BOB....i was asked about spelling fella so i did not know it was a spellig bee on here...lord knows i cant spell for crap with my thumbs..lol
Having been in alot of discussion on this site that end up teetering on a single word, I know that an inspector really needs to have a method of approach to difficult calls.
This is mine.
#1] What does the wording in the NEC actually say ? . Is it clear ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#2] Is there other language within the NEC that might not directly apply but can help understand a word or phrase ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#3] Is there info in an ROP, NEC Handbook, or UL Whitebook that helps clear up the question ?
#4] Take the best answer you have at this point and apply common sense to the specific installation that you're looking at.
#5] Is it still unclear which of several options are required ? . Then accept any of those possible options that the contractor chooses.
So this is how I would approach this question on this thread.
#1] What does the wording in the NEC actually say ? . Is it clear ?
My answer is: No because 680.26(B)(7) has the title, "Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment" which makes me lean toward the window not requiring bonding but then the wording after the title says, "..... all fixed metal parts shall be bonded". . So now we have the word "parts". . So I'm continuing on to #2.
#2] Other language within the NEC shows concern for nonelectrical metal parts such as waterlines and yet doesn't require bonding HVAC ductwork because it's not "structural" [250.104]. . Ambiguous intent for nonelectrical metal parts. . There's some specific requirements but there's no general rule that's always followed, so I'm continuing on to #3.
#3] Handbook page 1046, left paragraph under 680.26(B)(7) says, "..... and all fixed metal parts, which include conduit and piping, metal door frames, and metal window frames, within 5 ft .....". . This is very clear but an inspector should never ever stop without getting to the common sense question.
#4] Common sense. . Common sense tells me that it's possible to be shocked when wet and when the metal object is within 5 feet of the pool. . Common sense also tells me it doesn't matter to the current if the metal grounded object is a window frame or a motor frame. . Possible is good enough for me.
#5] After reading the Handbook, I believe the answer is clear and there are not several options.
You don't bond the metal window frame within 5ft of the pool, I can't approve the installation and it has nothing to do with Mike Holts pictures.
This is mine.
#1] What does the wording in the NEC actually say ? . Is it clear ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#2] Is there other language within the NEC that might not directly apply but can help understand a word or phrase ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#3] Is there info in an ROP, NEC Handbook, or UL Whitebook that helps clear up the question ?
#4] Take the best answer you have at this point and apply common sense to the specific installation that you're looking at.
#5] Is it still unclear which of several options are required ? . Then accept any of those possible options that the contractor chooses.
So this is how I would approach this question on this thread.
#1] What does the wording in the NEC actually say ? . Is it clear ?
My answer is: No because 680.26(B)(7) has the title, "Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment" which makes me lean toward the window not requiring bonding but then the wording after the title says, "..... all fixed metal parts shall be bonded". . So now we have the word "parts". . So I'm continuing on to #2.
#2] Other language within the NEC shows concern for nonelectrical metal parts such as waterlines and yet doesn't require bonding HVAC ductwork because it's not "structural" [250.104]. . Ambiguous intent for nonelectrical metal parts. . There's some specific requirements but there's no general rule that's always followed, so I'm continuing on to #3.
#3] Handbook page 1046, left paragraph under 680.26(B)(7) says, "..... and all fixed metal parts, which include conduit and piping, metal door frames, and metal window frames, within 5 ft .....". . This is very clear but an inspector should never ever stop without getting to the common sense question.
#4] Common sense. . Common sense tells me that it's possible to be shocked when wet and when the metal object is within 5 feet of the pool. . Common sense also tells me it doesn't matter to the current if the metal grounded object is a window frame or a motor frame. . Possible is good enough for me.
#5] After reading the Handbook, I believe the answer is clear and there are not several options.
M. D. said:
You don't bond the metal window frame within 5ft of the pool, I can't approve the installation and it has nothing to do with Mike Holts pictures.
There was a question at our IAEI annual state meeting about 680.26(C). . The question was if a concrete pool could count the area of the concrete to water contact as the required 9" square.
The person assigned to answer went into stuff he found in the ROP or ROC which used the word "metal". . So in his opinion, the concrete of the pool did not count toward the 9" square. . I disagreed then and I disagree now.
#1] What does the wording in the NEC actually say ? . Is it clear ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#2] Is there other language within the NEC that might not directly apply but can help understand a word or phrase ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#3] Is there info in an ROP, NEC Handbook, or UL Whitebook that helps clear up the question ?
#4] Take the best answer you have at this point and apply common sense to the specific installation that you're looking at.
#5] Is it still unclear which of several options are required ? . Then accept any of those possible options that the contractor chooses.
#1] 680.26(C) uses the words "conductive surface area". . The words are clear. . I believe the proper response is to skip to #4. . No ROP/ROC should be consulted. . It's not the code and the code is clear. . There's no ambiguous wording that needs interpreted and so the ROC is of no value to me for that particular question.
So this is the same way that I'm looking at this thread. . If the NEC wording is clear, I'm content to ignore anything written in the Handbook.
But 680.26(B)(7) has the word "parts" which is ambiguous so I'm not going to skip to #4. . I end up at step #3 consulting the Handbook and the Handbook is clear. . The door/window frame must be bonded.
One last thing:
Don't get too excited about this whole thing. . Remember we're only talking about metal doors and windows within 5 feet of the water. . That's really really close and will almost never apply. . How many people put their pool within 5 feet of a wall ?
The person assigned to answer went into stuff he found in the ROP or ROC which used the word "metal". . So in his opinion, the concrete of the pool did not count toward the 9" square. . I disagreed then and I disagree now.
#1] What does the wording in the NEC actually say ? . Is it clear ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#2] Is there other language within the NEC that might not directly apply but can help understand a word or phrase ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#3] Is there info in an ROP, NEC Handbook, or UL Whitebook that helps clear up the question ?
#4] Take the best answer you have at this point and apply common sense to the specific installation that you're looking at.
#5] Is it still unclear which of several options are required ? . Then accept any of those possible options that the contractor chooses.
#1] 680.26(C) uses the words "conductive surface area". . The words are clear. . I believe the proper response is to skip to #4. . No ROP/ROC should be consulted. . It's not the code and the code is clear. . There's no ambiguous wording that needs interpreted and so the ROC is of no value to me for that particular question.
So this is the same way that I'm looking at this thread. . If the NEC wording is clear, I'm content to ignore anything written in the Handbook.
M. D. said:
But 680.26(B)(7) has the word "parts" which is ambiguous so I'm not going to skip to #4. . I end up at step #3 consulting the Handbook and the Handbook is clear. . The door/window frame must be bonded.
One last thing:
Don't get too excited about this whole thing. . Remember we're only talking about metal doors and windows within 5 feet of the water. . That's really really close and will almost never apply. . How many people put their pool within 5 feet of a wall ?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Didn't a girl in FL get electrocuted from the metal door frame near a pool?
Something about a cord jammed in the slider?
Something about a cord jammed in the slider?
M. D.
Senior Member
Sad thing is ,..we should not need the handbook or a graphic. I would humbly ask you to read the definition of equipment ,..and then , employing Charlie's ,...rule read the section... Keep in mind there is no size mentioned in section (7) 2008 so all fixed metal parts need to be bonded within 5'??
I have always erred on the side of bonding when in doubt .
I think I draw at windows , I have bonded fences and a door frame , I even had an inspector want me to bond a metal door on a wooden frame , talked my way out of that one .
I think if the intent was to have us bond the fixed metal parts located on the premises they should have a section like this
Metal parts
All fixed metal parts, structures, or fittings located on the premises within 5' of the inside walls of the pool shall be bonded
I have always erred on the side of bonding when in doubt .
I think I draw at windows , I have bonded fences and a door frame , I even had an inspector want me to bond a metal door on a wooden frame , talked my way out of that one .
I think if the intent was to have us bond the fixed metal parts located on the premises they should have a section like this
Metal parts
All fixed metal parts, structures, or fittings located on the premises within 5' of the inside walls of the pool shall be bonded
Last edited:
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Let's not forget all those siding nails and screws that are within 5'.
radiopet
Senior Member
- Location
- Spotsylvania, VA
Honestly I believe the reason it was left out was because of a graphic clarity issue and a practical issue. The bigger issue is with the fence or antenna if within 5' of the pool because of it's potential with its earth connection.
Mike C who does Mike H's graphics is a heck of a nice guy and a perfectionish with his work so I would venture to say it is more a choice than a change in vision...but I can't speak for either Mike. I am also sure he and Ryan among others batted it around well enough to make the call...Ryan is sharp as well so they thought this graphic over I am sure.
Mike C who does Mike H's graphics is a heck of a nice guy and a perfectionish with his work so I would venture to say it is more a choice than a change in vision...but I can't speak for either Mike. I am also sure he and Ryan among others batted it around well enough to make the call...Ryan is sharp as well so they thought this graphic over I am sure.
frizbeedog
Senior Member
- Location
- Oregon
radiopet said:
That's what I was thinking, but there is a question, as has been raised in this thread as to whether the drawing actually depicts what the code intends for this. Some have concluded that the language doesn't support it. That is, for any of these items as it is currently written.
Some have said that electricity does not care what you think, as regards to a potential difference.
They jury is still out and we need some more clarity.
- Location
- Massachusetts
radiopet said:
For the record, I did not ask Dennis to change his profile. I did privately rib him about his self promotion.
radiopet
Senior Member
- Location
- Spotsylvania, VA
lol....Who is Dennis....heck man I dont think stating ones achievements is wrongful....it relates pride in one's desire to broaden knowledge and all that jazz.
It's all good Bob....we all can't be friends
It's all good Bob....we all can't be friends
- Location
- Massachusetts
radiopet said:
It was about 1AM, I did mean Paul not Dennis.
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