A change.. 680.26 Graphic

[M. D.]

For the record, I did not ask Dennis to change his profile. I did privately rib him about his self promotion.

Bob , I think you mean Paul or is it Dennis ,. what do I know..

By the way I looked last night for the "girl" killed by the slider did not find anything,...well not exactly true ..water unelectrified water in swimming pools ,..kills about 300 children a year ..third leading cause of death .....

I saw a 13 year span, I forget the years,.in which 60 deaths,.. not limited to children ,..were due to electrocution ,..most of those were due to appliances plugged into non gfci protected outlets... same time span pool water killed over 3,000 children ,....Best thing to do with a pool might just be to drain it,.but I digress

Pretty quiet on this tread there Bob,.

All fixed metal parts within 5' ....I sure hope not,... letter slots , clothes lines, down spouts ,..door bell buttons, hinges, ....All fixed metal parts 5',.... screws, nails ,..just how small is a part .
I'm not much of a tech writer but it is clear the re write and the re draw have cleared up nothing, and it needs work.

 

[iwire]

Bob , I think you mean Paul or is it Dennis ,. what do I know..

Yeah I meant Paul, I was sleep posting.

By the way I looked last night for the "girl" killed by the slider did not find anything,

.

I need to ask BPHGraviity, I thought he brought it up, keep in mind FL also requires bonding metal studs regardless of pool.

..well not exactly true ..water unelectrified water in swimming pools ,..kills about 300 children a year ..third leading cause of death .....

Could you point me to that report?

My wife thinks I am nuts about keeping our kids out of other peoples Walmart pools run on extension cords.

Pretty quiet on this tread there Bob,.

Yes, ......... yes I have been.

 

[M. D.]

Here is very good study ,..long one but I read most of it
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1470565

Here is another
The Statistics
Following are the causes of electrical deaths in the United States associated with pools in the years 1990-2002:

28 - Plugged-in radios or stereos, extension cords or power tools

13 - Underwater pool lights

10 - Pool pumps

9 - Sump pumps, pool vacuums or pressure washers


Source: U.S. CPSC


Here is another ,...I see here the CDC 05 has ranked pools the 2 leading cause of death for children under 14. I'm sure I read bits a pieces of more it is not hard to find...

http://www.poseidon.fr/us/statistics.html

 

[iwire]

Thank you. :smile:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

For the record, I did not ask Dennis to change his profile. I did privately rib him about his self promotion.

I am glad to know I am always on your mind. :grin: Esp. when trouble is brewing.

 

[dnem]

Sad thing is ,..we should not need the handbook or a graphic. I would humbly ask you to read the definition of equipment ,..and then , employing Charlie's ,...rule read the section...

Charlie's rule can help a person focus on what the words actually say, not what you imagine they might mean. . And that's a good start, but it's not the stopping point for me. . It's only step #1. . After the reading and thinking is done, I ask, "Is it clear ?" . The answer sends me to either step #2 or step #4.

#1] What does the wording in the NEC actually say ? . Is it clear ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#2] Is there other language within the NEC that might not directly apply but can help understand a word or phrase ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#3] Is there info in an ROP, NEC Handbook, or UL Whitebook that helps clear up the question ?
#4] Take the best answer you have at this point and apply common sense to the specific installation that you're looking at.
#5] Is it still unclear which of several options are required ? . Then accept any of those possible options that the contractor chooses.

 

[M. D.]

ALL fixed metal parts includes a whole lot of stuff David ,..way more than what the guy thinks it might mean when he wrote the commentary ,..just think I could have written it:smile:

You won't even give me #5 this is hardly clear

 

[radiopet]

OK.....I have spoken to Mike Holt today and he has asked me to post this response.

1.) He is of the believe ( As I am also ) that we really should not be bonding to metal frames and much less the fence or antenna in his opinion. However, if the fence or antenna is within 5' of the pool structure then he feels the NEC is clear it should be bonded to the Equipotential Grid.

Now....it is not a matter of Mike being wrong in the past...he was simply trying to uphold what he believes the NEC says but we both believe it is just not practicle to bond to the window or door frame because it is not likely to be energized or in contact with the earth.....

Mike plans on making some proposals for 2011 to clear this up in saying that anything outside of the equipotential grid area is not required to be bonded period....if within the grid requirement yes ( where practicle )...outside of the grid.....just not something he feels needs to take place.

For the record I agree 100% with this call and we talked about the issues of it today and we both will try to submit something to clear it up and I encourage others to take hold of your right to voice changes and submit them for the 2011 proposal deadline.

Hope this actually clears it up....things always change over time and it is not a matter of being right or wrong...heck the handbook is simply an interp...it is not code.....hopefully this will be yet another area that will be cleaned up in the 2011 edition...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Thanks Paul. I feel better about my interpretation now. :wink:

 

[iwire]

Thanks Paul. I feel better about my interpretation now. :wink:

And I feel good about never jumping in with a firm opinion either way on this one. :grin:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

And I feel good about never jumping in with a firm opinion either way on this one. :grin:

You're so wishy washy...:grin:

 

[iwire]

You're so wishy washy...:grin:

I was on this one, bending in the breeze. :grin:

 

[M. D.]

And I feel good about never jumping in with a firm opinion either way on this one. :grin:

And I still don't see the language that makes,. the bonding of the fence or antenna or any other fixed metal that is not part of a wiring method or equipment as defined by the book itself,...clear,.. 5' or otherwise .

(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded to the equipotential grid.

Equipment
A general term, including material, fittings, devices, appliances, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of or in connection with, an electrical installation.

So if we were to add a section 680.26(b)(8) what should the minimum size metal part be???

(8)Metal parts
All fixed metal parts, structures, or fittings 9 square inches or larger located on the premises within 5' of the inside walls of the pool shall be bonded

 

[dnem]

OK.....I have spoken to Mike Holt today and he has asked me to post this response.

1.) He is of the believe ( As I am also ) that .....

The problem with individual beliefs is that you end up with individual decisions. . Of course the code is filled with stuff that needs to be interpreted but the times when a definite answer is available, those are the times when you can provide uniform code enforcement across the board for all contractors on all projects. . That's the ideal situation.

Putting in code proposals for changes is the best longterm approach. . But in the short term uniform enforcement is most desirable.

I'm not going to express my opinion on this question because I've followed my method and came up with a definite answer. . I don't feel that my opinion on door/window bonding matters on this question. . When I follow my steps for 680.26(B)(7), the word "parts" isn't clear and that sends me to step #2.

But, as I said before, I don't want to put too much emphasis on the Handbook or ROPs. . I don't feel that ROP/ROC words matter when looking at 680.26(C). . Even if it was the Handbook that said "metal" under 680.26(C), I would ignore the Handbook because 680.26(C) is totally clear as written. . I fully understand what the word "conductive" means and I'm moving on to step #4.

And I still don't see the language that makes,. the bonding of the fence or antenna or any other fixed metal that is not part of a wiring method or equipment as defined by the book itself,...clear,.. 5' or otherwise .

"And I still don't see the language that makes,. the bonding .....clear,.."
The fact that it's not clear is my whole point. . I'm not offering an opinion on what I think should be bonded, I trusting the process that I'm following that will cut back on the weight that my opinion has in the inspection process. . Determining if something is clear is the most important point that I consider at each step.

I'm still applying common sense [in step #4] and I'm still drawing conclusions about words like "parts" and "conductive". . And I'm still considering the context, but my starting point is not what I think should be accepted in the next code cycle.

#1] What does the wording in the NEC actually say ? . Is it clear ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#2] Is there other language within the NEC that might not directly apply but can help understand a word or phrase ? . If yes, then skip to #4.
#3] Is there info in an ROP, NEC Handbook, or UL Whitebook that helps clear up the question ?
#4] Take the best answer you have at this point and apply common sense to the specific installation that you're looking at.
#5] Is it still unclear which of several options are required ? . Then accept any of those possible options that the contractor chooses.

 

[dnem]

So if we were to add a section 680.26(b)(8) what should the minimum size metal part be???

(8)Metal parts
All fixed metal parts, structures, or fittings 9 square inches or larger located on the premises within 5' of the inside walls of the pool shall be bonded

For a proposal, I wouldn't go with a size, I would go with a condition that recognizes that electricity needs a more than metal, it needs a path.

(8)Metal parts
All fixed metal parts, structures, or fittings that are in contact with conductive structural components shall be bonded

FPN: Examples of conductive structural components are metal stud wall framing, aluminum siding, a concrete slab in contact with the metal frame

 

[M. D.]

.

. . When I follow my steps for 680.26(B)(7), the word "parts" isn't clear and that sends me to step #2.
.

But it is clear the , the metal parts , are those of metal wiring methods and equipment ...regardless of the size if it is part of equipment or a metal wiring method as defined by the NEC it shall be bonded..

Your logic has me bonding "All fixed metal parts" and that is not what it says and that is clear to me.

 

[iwire]

(8)Metal parts
All fixed metal parts, structures, or fittings that are in contact with conductive structural components shall be bonded

I don't see that as the way to go, I would link it to size.

An isolated metal door frame may get a cord jammed in it.

 

[iwire]

But it is clear the , the metal parts , are those of metal wiring methods and equipment

I have yet to see that as clear .... as much as I wanted to.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I don't see that as the way to go, I would link it to size.

An isolated metal door frame may get a cord jammed in it.

And someone could put an extension cord in the water also, set a radio next to the pool, etc. You get my point.

If this is an issue then every metal door should be bonded to protect people from the cord shorting in the doorway regardless of a pool or not.

 

[iwire]

And someone could put an extension cord in the water also, set a radio next to the pool, etc. You get my point.

To some extent I agree.

But if the door is within 5' of a pool I think it is a safe bet that people will standing bare foot and wet in a puddle of water when they go to use the door.