Amish wiring

[102 Inspector]

A neighboring jurisdiction has a large amish base and he is starting to see electrical circuits being placed in the homes. Most of these are powered by generator or battery cells with some solar collection. I have not seen personally, just conversation. His question to me was on a residential house using a 12 volt? wiring system for lighting and some receptacles that operate by generator or inverter, would the house be required to meet the provisions of NEC for outlet spacing, GFCI, required circuits, etc. I am hoping to meet with him to join in an inspection so I can get a better idea of actual installation. What are the thoughts on when residential requirements actually "kick in" for this type of install. To my knowledge, there have been no variances granted by state for religious exemptions.

 

[102 Inspector]

As I am digging deeper into this situation, I have reviewed Article 690 for PV requirements and Article 720 for systems less than 50 volts. I find that all conductors shall be minimum 12 ga wiring and 20 amp rated receptacles are required, but find not exemptions from other requirements of residential installed. It could be implied under 720.7 that outlets are only required where likely to be used. Under 2008 Edition also. This will impact such items as smoke detectors with interconnect capabilities, outlet spacing requirements, and basically all of Article 210. I am glad it is not my inspection district, but I can see it possible working its way into my area so I am trying to get a handle on this early.

 

[iwire]

The answer will come locally.

Here it is my understanding you would not get an occupancy permit for a home without electricity and it would have to be code compliant.

Where you are the rules must be different.

 

[kwired]

Around here if you are not going to connect to the utility company, you do whatever you want.

I suppose as the laws are written all wiring is covered by the State Electrical Act, but in general you don't get service from a utility if you did not get a permit for an installation (some exemptions - mostly agricultural related though). If I want to build a facility that is self powered I can probably do so without any permits. As a contractor it may be wise to get the permits anyway just to be able to say it passed certain standards should something come up someday and the owner wants to try to sue me over something.

But building permits and electrical permits are not from the same departments here - in some of the cities with their own AHJ maybe, in the rural areas no.

 

[al hildenbrand]

A neighboring jurisdiction has a large amish base and he is starting to see electrical circuits being placed in the homes. . . would the house be required to meet the provisions of NEC for outlet spacing, GFCI, required circuits, etc.

Interesting question. Here's my opinion.

As you describe it, I realize these are existing dwellings that were not constructed originally with a Premises Wiring (System) - from Article 100 Definitions. And, per your description, the new wiring is most likely being added on a load by load basis for specific use, as opposed to General Lighting Circuits or Small Appliance Circuits.

I think of the obligation that I, as an electrician, must meet to be Code compliant when I go to an older home and install a 125 Volt 20 Amp Laundry Circuit. Say that this dwelling was built in the first half of the 1900s, to the electrical code in effect during construction, but that it never had a designated Laundry Circuit. Now, today, I am adding a Laundry Circuit using the requirements of today's Code for the Laundry Circuit install, that is, the receptacle will be TR, may be GFI protected, will be a grounding-type receptacle, will be on a 20 Amp circuit, etc.

But, the install of the Laundry Circuit in an existing dwelling, built originally without a Laundry Circuit, doesn't, by the National Electrical Code, invoke any additional electrical requirements beyond the Laundry Circuit, such as Laundry Area Lighting, etc.

My point, . . . Unless there is Local Ordinance that establishes a minimum electrical system configuration for EXISTING buildings, the NEC is a new construction only document. When new wiring is added to an existing dwelling that previously had NO Premises Wiring (System), the new wiring must meet only the requirements that apply directly to it.

So, in the case of outlet spacing, if I install a circuit to supply a computer at a desk location, it is for a specific load / use. If I wire a room for General Lighting, then that one room would follow the applicable passages in the Code pertaining to it. The remainder of the dwelling remains outside of the scope of the installation work.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Interesting question. Here's my opinion.

As you describe it, I realize these are existing dwellings that were not constructed originally with a Premises Wiring (System) - from Article 100 Definitions. And, per your description, the new wiring is most likely being added on a load by load basis for specific use, as opposed to General Lighting Circuits or Small Appliance Circuits.

I think of the obligation that I, as an electrician, must meet to be Code compliant when I go to an older home and install a 125 Volt 20 Amp Laundry Circuit. Say that this dwelling was built in the first half of the 1900s, to the electrical code in effect during construction, but that it never had a designated Laundry Circuit. Now, today, I am adding a Laundry Circuit using the requirements of today's Code for the Laundry Circuit install, that is, the receptacle will be TR, may be GFI protected, will be a grounding-type receptacle, will be on a 20 Amp circuit, etc.

But, the install of the Laundry Circuit in an existing dwelling, built originally without a Laundry Circuit, doesn't, by the National Electrical Code, invoke any additional electrical requirements beyond the Laundry Circuit, such as Laundry Area Lighting, etc.

My point, . . . Unless there is Local Ordinance that establishes a minimum electrical system configuration for EXISTING buildings, the NEC is a new construction only document. When new wiring is added to an existing dwelling that previously had NO Premises Wiring (System), the new wiring must meet only the requirements that apply directly to it.

So, in the case of outlet spacing, if I install a circuit to supply a computer at a desk location, it is for a specific load / use. If I wire a room for General Lighting, then that one room would follow the applicable passages in the Code pertaining to it. The remainder of the dwelling remains outside of the scope of the installation work.

I would agree with that.

 

[kwired]

Interesting question. Here's my opinion.

As you describe it, I realize these are existing dwellings that were not constructed originally with a Premises Wiring (System) - from Article 100 Definitions. And, per your description, the new wiring is most likely being added on a load by load basis for specific use, as opposed to General Lighting Circuits or Small Appliance Circuits.

I think of the obligation that I, as an electrician, must meet to be Code compliant when I go to an older home and install a 125 Volt 20 Amp Laundry Circuit. Say that this dwelling was built in the first half of the 1900s, to the electrical code in effect during construction, but that it never had a designated Laundry Circuit. Now, today, I am adding a Laundry Circuit using the requirements of today's Code for the Laundry Circuit install, that is, the receptacle will be TR, may be GFI protected, will be a grounding-type receptacle, will be on a 20 Amp circuit, etc.

But, the install of the Laundry Circuit in an existing dwelling, built originally without a Laundry Circuit, doesn't, by the National Electrical Code, invoke any additional electrical requirements beyond the Laundry Circuit, such as Laundry Area Lighting, etc.

My point, . . . Unless there is Local Ordinance that establishes a minimum electrical system configuration for EXISTING buildings, the NEC is a new construction only document. When new wiring is added to an existing dwelling that previously had NO Premises Wiring (System), the new wiring must meet only the requirements that apply directly to it.

So, in the case of outlet spacing, if I install a circuit to supply a computer at a desk location, it is for a specific load / use. If I wire a room for General Lighting, then that one room would follow the applicable passages in the Code pertaining to it. The remainder of the dwelling remains outside of the scope of the installation work.

The Amish around here are building new homes or remodeling existing ones. They do not contract any work done for the most part, at least not by non-Amish people. They are (from what I have seen) installing some solar panels and likely some lighting powered from that system. They do have electric tools - but they run them from portable generators.

Some think they don't use modern conveniences, not entirely true, some groups are more strict then others, but bottom line is mostly that they must be self sufficient - depending on a utility company to provide energy does not meet that requirement - to them anyway.

 

[Barbqranch]

The title brings to mind a Simpson's episode where the Amish built and wired a treehouse for the kids, which immediately burst into flames.

 

[102 Inspector]

I also should have clarified in the OP that these are new homes being proposed and not retrofit of existing homes.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I also should have clarified in the OP that these are new homes being proposed and not retrofit of existing homes.

What ordinances are in effect in the jurisdiction of these proposed new homes?

 

[iwire]

I think of the obligation that I, as an electrician, must meet to be Code compliant when I go to an older home and install a 125 Volt 20 Amp Laundry Circuit. Say that this dwelling was built in the first half of the 1900s, to the electrical code in effect during construction, but that it never had a designated Laundry Circuit. Now, today, I am adding a Laundry Circuit using the requirements of today's Code for the Laundry Circuit install, that is, the receptacle will be TR, may be GFI protected, will be a grounding-type receptacle, will be on a 20 Amp circuit, etc.

But, the install of the Laundry Circuit in an existing dwelling, built originally without a Laundry Circuit, doesn't, by the National Electrical Code, invoke any additional electrical requirements beyond the Laundry Circuit, such as Laundry Area Lighting, etc.

You and the Massachusetts electrical code feel the same way.

Rule 3 Additions or modifications to an existing installation shall be made in accordance with this Code without bringing the remaining part of the installation into compliance with the requirements of this Code. The installation shall not create a violation of this Code, nor shall it increase the magnitude of an existing violation.

 

[al hildenbrand]

You and the Massachusetts electrical code feel the same way.

My perspective is informed by what is loosely known as the Minnesota Electrical Act that covers the State of Minnesota.

In a nutshell, it says the NEC covers the State and, if a local jurisdiction wants to, it can enforce stricter standards than the NEC, but no less than the NEC.

In reality, there are, even though the Minnesota Electrical Act was established in 1899 (that's not a typo, 1899) still areas that have no established electrical inspection, and, as a result, it is easier to run under the radar. Being below radar doesn't relieve the requirements of the NEC as minimum standard.

 

[102 Inspector]

Currently there are no local ordinances which address this type of installation. Previously the jurisdiction had homes with no electrical, but they had them place battery RF smoke detectors. I think it was a office policy and not an ordinance. Now that new homes are proposing some electrical to be installed, but not full compliance, the inspector is in a jamb on how to address them. He is trying to be fair to everyone, but realizes the lifestyles are different. I totally agree with the installation of existing homes affecting only the work being done, but these are new homes. I might have to call Pennsylvania and see how they apply this and see how it works in NE Indiana.

 

[growler]

Now that new homes are proposing some electrical to be installed, but not full compliance, the inspector is in a jamb on how to address them. He is trying to be fair to everyone, but realizes the lifestyles are different.

I don't see this as being the electrical inspector's problem. He doesn't have that kind of authority.

The way I see it if they apply for a building permit they would be required to meet code just like everyone else unless they apply for and recieve a variance that permits them to build somewhat less than code requires.

A variance is issued by those that do have the authory. This would keep it from putting the inspector in a jam.

 

[iwire]

I don't see this as being the electrical inspector's problem. He doesn't have that kind of authority.

The way I see it if they apply for a building permit they would be required to meet code just like everyone else unless they apply for and recieve a variance that permits them to build somewhat less than code requires.

A variance is issued by those that do have the authory. This would keep it from putting the inspector in a jam.

I agree 100%.

 

[mgookin]

It sounds like if it's not specifically spelled out, someone needs to lobby the legislature or building commission to get something enacted to address it.

As others have stated, that's not the inspector's duty, but I can see the predicament it puts the inspector in, especially if it's one of those places where permits are issued without plans.

Others in the industry may argue that preferential treatment should not be given to a particular group of people, and they have a valid argument.

I've often wondered why we don't have solar panels and 12Vdc lighting for homes. Simple automotive bulbs/ sockets/ batteries/ etc. and you don't even need an inverter.

 

[GoldDigger]

Simple automotive bulbs would have to be the LED versions to have useful efficiency.

Tapatalk!

 

[growler]

Others in the industry may argue that preferential treatment should not be given to a particular group of people, and they have a valid argument.

I'm not sure you could legally give preferential treatment to a particular group of people.

You would have to have certian areas zoned for a less than standard type of construction or address the issue of being off the grid pretty much accross the board ( for everyone). They may be able to get a state charter for their own communities ( then they get to make up the rules locally).

 

[mbrooke]

The same question has come up with people who are living on 100% solar. Some places just wont allow it unless its wired to the NEC then you add solar. Other towns just don't care, often because many are trying to be that way.



If I was the inspector for the Amish, as long as it was done safely, at least following the essential low voltage rules I wouldn't care what they do.

 

[mgookin]

In Florida we have an indian tribe exempt from the building code when buildng a chickeee (think thatched pavillion). The exemption applies to the whole state, not just on indian reservations. They're most commonly erected at entertainment venues with a bar, seating, dancing, stage, etc.